Michelle Malkin always writes with clarity and precision. I think she is right about this issue. But how is it that she recognizes two concepts that she doesn’t apparently integrate into her discussion on immigration? 1)In America the murder of civilians is an anomally. 2) For the Jihadist murder is a way of life.

Writting in Capitalism magazine she has also stated that even moderate muslim nations such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia don’t recognize individual rights, yet she persists in her crusade against illegal immigration...rightly calling congressmen to account in a piece called "Lawmakers who Love Lawbreakers"(the piece specifically involves a familly from Jordan/Saudia Arabia). All fine and dandy, if there is going to be a law it should be enforced. But if all people are born with inalianable rights...don’t all people have a responsibility to themselves to move to a nation that recognizes this, quotas be dammed?

Of all the issues that puts the spade to the far-left notion that America is the great Satan, the shear number of people from around the world trying to enter is number 1.

I predict that the truth of what happened will be much less than what we have been led to believe.

Dale/TexasDude - Stay tuned to FoxNews and I predict your prediction will come true!

The Marines I know would not accept Malkin’s strange last line, its merely statistical comparison. I don’t agree that that "says it all", even "more or less."

I don’t even get Fox News, so blow it your ear! The only news channel I get is MSNBC, which is as pathetic as it gets.

You know, Craig, at least Fox News can honestly state that it did not cut a deal with a despotic government for access to its country just as long as it did not report certain things, which is exactly what CNN did with Iraq in 1990 or 1991.

So, again, blow it out your ear!

The entire results of the investigation will be made public, good, bad or partly both. Fox News will report the entire results. CNN and MSNBC will only report the bad portions, if any, and will spin the good, as best they can, to make the troops and/or the investigation look as bad as possible. Ditto CBS, NBC and ABC, NYT, LAT and WaPo.

Texas Dude, I hope, and think, you’re right in comment 1.

I think it’s interesting that they’re rioting in Afghanistan over a car accident and there’s nothing in Iraq over this.

". . . I will remind you that while the murder of civilians is and remains an anomaly in American military history, it is the jihadists’ way of life."

This kind of comment is patently untrue, and indicative of "the rights" ongoing slide into dementia.

Modern wars kill more civilians than military personnel. This is a given. The US "pound to pulp, ideally from air conditioned comfort" strategy,just makes this worse.

How many civilians were killed in Dresden, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2? More than in a jihadists wettests of dreams.

Before the brain dead responses begin, no I am not a fan of terrorism. I think we have established that, but I’m not a fan of state violence either, and I won’t let nonsense masquerading as commentary pass.

Brian, civilians killed during a "total war" aren’t "murdered." Dresden was payback for London, Hiroshima saved civilian lives, and so on. Malkin’s point is that it has not been U.S. military policy to slaughter unarmed civilians...it it were, why all the laser-guided weapons?

Gentlemen, this is not a Rorschach test of attitudes toward American military history. Nor is it properly an occasion for partisanship, in my opinion. This is a hugely serious matter of fact, still to be fully investigated.

Dain- Excellent points. It would that the point refers to the will of those doing the attacking, not the results. From a results perspective, yes, the United States has killed many non-combattants (though even that term can be misleading). The real issue here is did they intend to do so. If they have then it is appropriate to be be outraged. More likely, however, these poor souls are the casualties that will come with all war. The only way to prevent them is to not fight, and sometimes that’s not an option.

From a results perspective, yes, the United States has killed many non-combattants (though even that term can be misleading).

Why on earth would I give the merest flying fart what the will of those doing the killing is? Should I feel sympathy for them or their enablers? The incredible irony is I do feel sympathy for these soldiers. Poor bastards, stuck in an impossible situation. But not for their enablers.

Haditha and similar atrocities simply throw the lunacy of war on this scale into sharp relief. They cut through the miasma of stupefying justification, and dull, clinical terms like "collatoral damage", to the heart of the matter.

For the "results oriented" among you, since the start of the Iraq war, we have had a thousand Hadithas. From the air, from artillery, from mines, grenades, white phosphorus, stray gunfire, directed gunfire, hellfire missiles and terrorists bombs.

These people are dead. Just as all the children and parents shot to pieces at checkpoints are equally dead. These soldiers lives are utterly destroyed, guys who probably would be raising kids and barbecuing in their back yards if not for Bush and his utter lunacy.

Why FUCKING TOLD YOU SO.

Brian C. is of the opinion that war is never the answer.

What is sad is that Brian C. would most definately be living in a different world, NAZI, if such thinking had been more prevalent during WWII.

To him, the costs of war far outeigh any successes.

So ...

No attempt at stopping the genocide in Bosnia .

No attempt at stopping the civil strife many other parts of the world via either the UN or individual nations.

Saddam, with his child prisons, state sanctioned rapists, and support of international terrorism would still be in power today.

The taliban would still be harboring Al Qeada in Afhanistan.

Of course, though, war is never the answer.

Of course, no civilian death is worth it.

Of course, Brian C. is an blathering fool.

What is sad is that Brian C. would most definately be living in a different world, NAZI, if such thinking had been more prevalent during WWII.

Still locked in the 1930’s I see.

This was a war of choice. Even O Reilly has finally come around to that realisation. Now we’ve gotten ourselves painted into a corner. Iraq is gradually becoming the Afganhistan of the 21st century, just bigger, plus Afganhistan.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the entire middle east co-operating as one, and with fire in their hearts and bellys wouldn’t be able to launch a land invasion of the EU, let alone the US. The Swedish Army on their own could hold them off.

It is a delusion to which you, because of your hyper nationalism, are especially prone.

I genuinely don’t know what the answer is. Stay? Go? Train?

I do know however that you Dale are to blame, in part at least, for the death of those civilians, and the destruction of those young mens lives. You cheerlead this madness from the beginning. Take a long hard look at yourself and what you and your compatriots have wrought.

No, Brian, it is you who need to take a hard look at yourself.

Brian, I am not locked in the 1930’s. I am in the here and now realizing that statism or realpolitik will only get us more 9-11s.

The police action stance the United States took throughout the 1990s did little to stop the war that the Islamists has been waging against us.

The us, by the way, is you and me, Brian, for they don’t care if you hide your tail behind your legs. They don’t care if you appease them. They don’t care if you muster all your outrage and the United States, President Bush, or the West.

Yes, I cheerlead this cause, this crusade, to rid the world of Islamism.

If I share blame for the civilian deaths that have been caused by the War on Terror, they you share the blame of the much greater deaths imposed by the various evil regimes that you want to appease.

Which is worse, being culpable for millions of innocent deaths or thousands?

Brian- You can’t seriously expect to refer to WWII to make your point in one post and then call the actions of another doing the same outdated. That’s just asinine.

But perhaps you have a point when it comes to Iraq. It may have been the wrong thing to do, but there is no proof to your statement that there have been thousands of Hadithas.

Will is important for many reasons. First, it answers to the questions of morality and ethics of behaviors. For example, one would view the actions of the mentally handicapped differntly than a mad man, even if the result was the same, becuase of the difference in will. Second, will is an important indicatior of future actions. The will to fight and kill is almost as important as the ability. Many countries in the middle East may not have the ability to invade the EU now, but with the will they could develop the means to invade or worse, kill millions without sending a single troop.

Life is not always as simple as people like you should want it to be.

By the way, Brian, all war is choice.

Europe didn’t have to fight the NAZIs.

War of choice ...

Is Iraq truly a war of choice?

You can argue that we did not have to go into Iraq when we did, but I assert that war in Iraq was inevitable.

Instead of regime change during or just after Desert Storm, we allowed Saddam to stay in power. That was due to the politcal mandate set out for Desert Storm and due to the realpolitik that many in the United States government of the time practiced.

All throughout the containment/sanction/inspection process, Iraq subverted them all.

We did eliminate a lot of WMD during that time and effectively destroyed Saddam’s military, but he was bent on getting it all back, one piece at a time.

Iraq was very close to getting the sanctions lifted. Iraq still had many of the people who worked on various weapons systems employed on other government programs. There were a lot of WMD not accounted for by the UN.

Looking back at the history of the 1990s, without even touching any of the documents we have obtained after OIF, there is no way anyone with an honest mind and heart can state that Saddam would not be an eventual threat ( of course, I argue that he was a current threat anyway).

but there is no proof to your statement that there have been thousands of Hadithas.

In terms of results. I do not mean that American troops deliberatly shoot civilians in cold blood. Haditha in that sense is an aberration. However from the strategic viewpoint, I am now convinced there is little difference between terrorists who plot atrocities, and those who wring their hands about inevitable civilian losses.

Both know in advance that roughly x civilians will be killed. This is considered acceptable in the context of the objective. Both proceed. The civilians are dead in both cases. From the perspective of "results", the actions are indistinguishable from each other.

In passing I mentioned Dresden as the seen of a major civilian bombing. It is representative of modern warfare.

The repeated contention that the Islamofascists are going to rise to power and take over the world and must be stopped at all costs, that this is WWII all over again, is the delusion that feeds justification for the Iraq war. It is the wellspring from which an attack on Iran will be launched.

It is a delusion. Even China with it’s sterling growth will be hard pressed to catch up to the US and the EU by 2050. The Islamic world doesn’t have a farts chance in a hurricane. As an existential threat to us they are exactly no where.

There is a small risk that these people will get a nuclear weapon. True. However short of killing every single muslim in the middle east, you are unlikely to eliminate this risk entirely. In fact short of killing every single wacko in the world ...

Try a different tack with Iran. Iraq is such a basket case now, it’s impossible to decide what to do. It should never have been invaded, learn the lesson.

but I assert that war in Iraq was inevitable.

Of course you do. To admit anything else would be to acknowledge your complicity in the horror.

You have my sympathy in that regard.

When it comes to Iran, there is more than a small chance that they will get a nuclear weapon and there is even a smaller chance that they won’t use it to purposively attack Israel, the United States, or some other Western nation. If Pakistan and North Korea can make the bomb, than so can Iran.

While I worry about those countries, Iran is a special case. Since 1979 they have done everything in their power to kill and destroy Americans, Israel, and the West in general. I see no reason for them to stop that when the get the bomb.

All questions of the legitimacy of Iraq aside, there are many reasons to be worried about Iran and the serious possibility that a resolution to this threat might require military action (though I pray to God that it won’t and hope that diplomatic actions will be successful).

I see no reason for them to stop that when the get the bomb.

Other than their utter destruction, and for what? To deal a grevious, but hardly fatal blow to the hated enemy? Only to be utterly destroyed in return?

It would require a whole chain of command to be insane for such an event to occur, even if they did want a weapon (which they deny), and even if they did manage to produce it unnoticed despite constant inspections of their facilities.

I’m not willing to stage another, and bigger Iraq on such a hopelessly, unlikely chain of "maybe". Haven’t we had enough of that? Jesus.

Iran will do the same thing here they have for years, pedal the means and funding to groups of "insane" people who will do it for them (also known as terrorists for those of you haven’t caught on yet). That way they can pass the blame while accomplishing their end and avoiding destruction. All it would take would be one wacko and a boat in New York Harbor . . .

But like I said before, I really hope it won’t come to fighting, that would (should) be the LAST resort.

Why is it that we are to be patient and wait for more facts to come in? Did these soldiers wait? Have our leaders? We were lied to about the WMD’S.
We are being woefully misinformed about the actual civilian death toll in Iraq. We are being led about in re the outed spies. Is there really reason to believe things have changed and that we won’t be dallied with on the Haditha issue as well? I guess we have no choice but to wait, sadly.

We’re being lied to about the mind control lasers that the Pentagon has been aiming at us for years. Wake up, people! Make yourself a hat out of tinfoil!

Ah. Tactic #1: Ridicule the dissenting opinion.
I guess I can safely traipse back to yahoogroups for political talk. The grass really is niot greener on the other side.
An American in Canada who now sees what’s on the other side of the blinders...and realizes that the blinders really do keep the mule from going mad.

Yes, most definately ridicule the dissenting opinion if the opinion is nothing but hogwash.

Please, this place is not about blinders.

However, I don’t think that the give and take on this site is truly about ridicule ... well ... ok ... sometimes, of which I participate.

Brian C. and I have a history on this site, so sometimes I take a little liberty of not typing all the same arguments over and over and over and cut to the derogatory comments.

What is most ironic about Brian C.’s postion is that it is the same position that a lot of folks before WWII.

Never again? Right? Well, we see in all instances, that slogan was pure hogwash.

One thing that seems to be true about mankind is that we repeat history even within our lifetimes.

Well, I say never again and if that means taking out people like Saddam, then so be it.

I realize that toppling a regime that was modeled on the old Soviet system is horrible for most of the communist loving folks out there, which appears to comprise most of the left, but it needed to be done.

It should have been done with the Desert Storm, but it wasn’t, so it was done over ten years later.

Again, I don’t care if the United States is liked, but I do care that we are safe and we are working towards being safe.

By the way Karen V., your statements put you squarely with the tin-foil hat crowd.

pedal the means and funding to groups of "insane" people who will do it for them

Yet another layer of "maybe" to add to the tottering tower of speculation.

Why not simply invade and subdue every other nation on Earth? After all, you never can tell.

Well, I say never again and if that means taking out people like Saddam, then so be it.

And I’ve said repeatedly that I no issue with that, if the effort is focused and legitimate. At least my position is nuanced. Dale, from you, it’s the same relentless unadjusted, wild eyed "kill them all!", "they are the islamofascist enemy!".

Haditha simply illustrates have bankrupt the option of war is. Did you listen to the eye witness account of that 12 year old girl? How many more are there like her out there we have never heard from? Children whose parents and siblings are dead? Do you think they have even thought about the motivations of those who killed them, or caused them to be killed?

No, not all, Brian. I have never taken the position to kill them all, not even once.

I have taken the position that we need to topple regimes, which does involve killing some in the regime and, sadly, does involve killing some civilians, but it has never been a capricious, ’wild eyed’ position.

I supported President Bush in his bid to become president because he stated that we we should not be nation builders and not be the world’s policemen.

And while this may be considered an cliche, 9-11 did change things for a lot of Americans. It woke me up to the reality of the world and not the pollyannish view that if we just dole out money, not upset anyone, and self-deprecate then we would be left alone.

Wrongo, buddy. A very big wrongo.

Never again.

If that means making people like you, Brian, irrationally fear the United States, then so be it.

If that means we upset the illusion of alliances of the world, then so be it.

If that means evil regimes, yes, Brian, there is evil in this world and it is not called the United States, then so be it.

If that means that in the process of protecting American and our interests, some civilians die, then so be it.

That position may be called many other things, but not a ’wild eyed’ or ’kill them all’ approach.

Brian C., you not keeping your powder dry.

Time and time again, things like this get blown out proportion.

It is almost like y’all are starving for anything that besmirches the War on Terror, President Bush, and the United States.

If true, it is statistcal anomoly when compared with the thousands of missions that go without any atrocity committed.

So, go ahead, fire your shot early, but history is not on your side when all the fog clears.

And, yes, it realize that it is anomaly and not anomoly and I also realize I left out a word a two that completes my thoughts on statements such as leaving out toppling in the line ’If that means evil regimes, ..."

And with that messed up correction, I am off for bed ...

DOOOOOOH!

No, not all, Brian. I have never taken the position to kill them all, not even once.

Mea Culpa. My bad. Hyperbole in the heat of the moment.

You are however terribly keen to go it alone, take few prisoners and you have completely bought into the "9/11 changed everything" meme. You are right, I don’t get it, because I lived through the cold war, and the threat of destruction was many times greater.

For 55 years the east and west faced off until the west eventually won the argument. The same is true of the gradual conversions of Spain, Greece, Portugal and more recently Turkey to relatively stable democracies.

Note that all of this was accomplished (largely) without violence. In the main, we won the argument, not the war. We avoided the war.

The same can be accomplished in Iran, in fact everywhere now that people living in democratic nations are numerically more numerous, than those living under totalitarian regimes. We had the wind in our sails in 2001.

However you and your ilk are too frightened to take that route, because it entails some small element of personal and national risk.

This is anathema, because you, like a large minority of Americans are subconsciously proto fascist, the master race/idea/political system in this case being American. A small minority are consciously fascist, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt:-)

Worse still, the "other" (Iraq/Iran/Syria) in this case is much, much weaker than for example the Soviet Union was during the cold war. This has the counter intuitive effect of making the option of force more, rather than less attractive. That’s the badly frightened bully factor kicking in. Too attractive for a weak minded incompetent like Bush to resist:-(

Julie, will your good readers get a follow-up post on this from you if the military finds these troops to be guilty of the alleged atrocities? If they are found guilty, there is a very slight risk that Malkin might concede that a minor wrong was done, but sensitive people, such as readers of her blog and yours, need maximum reinforcement of the "few bad apples" message (mantra), especially as these apples begin to pile up and smell bad, much like the civilian dead.

Karen - don’t be scared off by the knuckle-draggers here. They’re PROBABLY not trying to get your home address from their friends who are friends with someone at NSA, so that they can give you a one-on-one "lesson" in their version of patriotism. Just remember this, Karen, it’s very simple: America is for Americans, and if you disagree with them about anything, then you’re NOT an American. See?

Harry Heinie - sad sub-attempt to make Karen look like a mentally unstable conspiracy theorist...

Also, here’s a great analysis of how the right-wing blogosphere is getting completely unhinged over Haditha.

Hate to blow the stereotype of a lefty who’s hoping for American failure, but I certainly hope that the allegations turn out to be false, as this would be a real moral failure. But no one’s hopes should override the facts, whatever they may be.

In a sense this discussion is phony, partially because, as both sides admit, we don’t have anything like the sort of information we’d need in order to make a credible judgment.

But the real reason this is a pointless discussion is that it’s serving as a stand-in for the older argument about whether it was just for the United States to invade Iraq. Inevitably those who supported the war will criticize the rush to judgment, while those who opposed the war will be inclined to suspect that everything they’ve heard about Haditha is true. Of course, whatever happened (or didn’t happen) in Haditha is significant in a sense, but it really has nothing to do with the larger issue of the justice of the war. You want atrocities? World War II had plenty of them--far more, incidentally, and on a much larger scale, than happened in Vietnam. Most scholarly accounts of the Vietnam War suggest that, My Lai to the contrary, the U.S. military on the whole behaved admirably. So why is World War II remembered as "the good war," and Vietnam the bad one? Simple--we won the first, and we lost the second.

Even if Haditha is as bad as it might be, it still wouldn’t make the Left’s case that the invasion was unjust. And even if there ends up being nothing to the charges, it still wouldn’t make an unjust war just.

Thank you John for saying the only sensible thing I’ve read in this thread. I agree with Dennis Prager that clarity in most things is much to be preferred over agreement.

John, I agree with your basic contention here, which amounts to "nothing has changed".

However, this kind of atrocity cuts through the justification and "business as usual" approach to mechanised killing. Faced with the kind of horror in Haditha, we know it’s not worth it. People simply have no tolerance for this kind of thing, and that is correct attitude. The real crime is the attempt to sanitise war, so that it becomes palatable, or fades into the background.

In the absence of an existential threat to the life of the nation, war on this scale is a terrible solution, if it’s a solution at all. Haditha, and all the other senseless civilians deaths that preceed it are why.

Quite apart from everything we know now, there never was, and still is not an existential threat, to us or even Iraq’s neighbours. So what was it all for?

I freely confess I have no idea whatever how to proceed in Iraq. The real lesson is don’t embark on wars of choice again, at least not without very broad agreement. Haditha just rams that point home.

Brian, you lost me (and most thinking people) with your F bomb post. It’s hard to take anything you say seriously now. And you, yourself, confess to hyperbole. Let this thread die. It’s not a good one.

I can understand you not wanting to discuss the subject further. Fine, but spare me the "bad language .. oooh" card.

That is the least of our worries.

you, like a large minority of Americans are subconsciously proto fascist, the master race/idea/political system in this case being American.

Hey, Brian, just remember it was us "proto-fascists" that won the Cold War against your buddies in the USSR. And all those victories you list off were accomplished at great expense...lots and lots of "fascist" military spending, while the Euros sat back and enjoyed their vacation from reality.

Brian, you’re a class-A America-hater, and it shows in most of what you write. Even that doesn’t bother me much, but the notion that our society’s sacrifices for the sake of people like you is met only with abuse...that DOES bother me.

I really think it’s time to stop policing the world. Let people like you take care of themselves, and when you prove too spineless or idealistic to survive...just let you go the way of the Irish elk. We knuckle-dragging ’fascists’ will outlast you, friend.

I really think it’s time to stop policing the world.

A molecule of sense at last. Don’t call us, we’ll call you.

For the record ... again ... I don’t hate Americans, but I despise those who revel in the use of unchecked power.

American hyper nationalism is out of control, a large minority of you have completely lost the capacity to see yourselves objectivley. Many of you do consider yourselves a kind of master race, how else is one to interpret the support for Bushes go it alone policy?

You know best. I disagree, strongly, and I’ll keep on doing so. Does that annoy you? >Fantastic

No, what I find annoying is being called a fascist by some foreigner for whom we’ve she blood protecting (even if he isn’t smart enough to recognize the fact).

No, what I find annoying is being called a fascist by some foreigner for whom we’ve shed blood protecting (even if he isn’t smart enough to recognize the fact).

On the contrary, if anything you’ve made attacks on the EU more likely, but we can cope.

You’d fit right in working for these guys

Yea, safe from Islam...just like France and the Netherlands! Sometimes, Brian, you’re a real humorous guy.

just like France and the Netherlands

I honestly have no idea why you bother. You know, I have only contempt for these "the muslims are coming, the muslims are coming!!!" type of comments.

I’m not scared, I don’t need your protection, and I’m indifferent by your attempts to hijack the reputation of Americans who did die fighting for liberty.

The Jewish spiritual leaders of today, the rabbis, have ensured that to this day the Jewish people is educated in this hatred which the God Jahwe ordained through Moses on Mt. Sinai.

The rabbis have made this hatred the foundation of what the Jews call their religion. The Frankfurt Selichoth (a Jewish law book), page 715, includes this prayer that the Jews in their synagogues have used to call down the curse of their God Jahwe on Gentile humanity:

"Bring the worst wars to the homes of the Gentiles. Infect then with smallpox and punish them in your anger and fury. . . . Destroy their kings through war and take revenge upon them. Drive their heads to the ground in your fury!"

Two decades ago, the "Stürmer" began to educate the German people, and also other peoples, with fanatic devotion that just as in biblical times, today the Jews are still filled with unlimited hatred of all Gentiles, wishing to destroy the world. It encountered pitying smiles. Today, however, one does not need to believe the prophecies of misfortune, for one can see them with his own eyes.

Honest people are beginning to say openly that the "Stürmer" was right in what is repeatedly said. Today, millions of German men serving as soldiers in battle against Bolshevism see the results of Jewry’s hatred.

Same sh*t (in deference to Julie’s sensibilities) different decade, new morons lining up to Sieg Heil the latest great leader.

"Like the poisonous mushroom!" says Franz.

"Yes, my child! Just as a single poisonous mushrooms can kill a whole family, so a solitary Jew can destroy a whole village, a whole city, even an entire Volk."

Franz has understood.

"Tell me, mother, do all non-Jews know that the Jew is as dangerous as a poisonous mushroom?"

Mother shakes her head.

"Unfortunately not, my child. There are millions of non-Jews who do not yet know the Jews. So we have to enlighten people and warn them against the Jews. The Jew is found in every country in the world. Just as poisonous mushrooms often lead to the most dreadful calamity, so the Jew is the cause of misery and distress, illness and death."

German youth must learn to recognise the Jewish poison-mushroom. They must learn what a danger the Jew is for the German Volk and for the whole world. They must learn that the Jewish problem involves the destiny of us all.

Feel free to use this material, it’s more engaging than your normal blather, and reaches kids too!!

You’ll need to replace Jew with Muslim or Islamofascist, and German with American, but you get the idea.

Damn ... this is good, rousing stuff. George is just quoting some of these tracts verbatim.

Now there is war! The Jews forced us into a struggle for life and death. The war has forced us to give up much we formerly thought was necessary. It has also forced us to give up the "politeness" that in reality is a weakness.

A boxer in the ring must use his fists to defend himself against his opponent. A fencer can only win when he uses his sword. We as a people will survive this war only if we eliminate weakness and "politeness" and respond to the Jews with an equal hatred.

We must always keep in mind what the Jew wants today, and what he plans to do with us. If we do not oppose the Jews with the entire energy of our people, we are lost. But if we can use the full force of our soul that has been released by the National Socialist revolution, we need not fear the future.

The devilish hatred of the Jews plunged the world into war, need and misery. Our holy hate will bring us victory and save all of mankind.

Note the victimised tone, "they made me do it" etc. Are you inspired yet Dain? Just cut and paste ...

Horrific images of Iraqi adults and children have fueled new allegations that U.S. troops killed civilians in the Iraqi town of Ishaqi.

ABC News has learned, however, that military officials have completed their investigation and have concluded U.S. forces followed the rules of engagement. HT Michele Malkin: Perhaps the same results will be the outcome of this investigation. Is this a new psyops technique of the terrorists?

Now, there’s this. They’re supposed to determine that Marines killed these people and not terrorists, but they won’t let the investigators look at the bodies? Won’t let them determine the caliber(s) of bullets that killed them? Won’t let them determine, from stippling, whether the killings were from close range? They won’t let them exhume the bodies? When have they EVER complained about muslims being exhumed while we were digging up the hundreds of thousands of Saddam’s muslim victims? Curiouser and curiouser.

Oops. This is what I’m talking about curiouser and curiouser.

“I was an admirer of America,” says Khaliq, the morgue doctor. “When those bodies were brought here, it turned upside down my image of that country and its people.”

And how did he know, then, that terrorists, who have routinely killed families in order to use their houses as sniper nests, didn’t kill those people?

And how did he know, then, that terrorists, who have routinely killed families in order to use their houses as sniper nests, didn’t kill those people?

Could it be the eye witness accounts, the videotape footage and the avalanche of local testimony?

Or maybe that the pentagon and military investigators, hardly an objective lot, have reached the conclusion that what happened was at a minimum unlawful?

Are you the same Guido who was so keen to invade Iraq with little or no evidence, and is chomping at the bit to do the same in Iran?

You don’t see a tiny hint of hypocrisy in your position? I at least dismissed this stuff out of hand in November, I genuinely didn’t think it possible. In fact I’m sure I posted here to that effect, man I wish I could dig that out. I am still certain that this is an aberration, but the evidence! It’s overwhelming.

It’s possible I suppose that the entire town is lying. Men, women, children, doctors, nurses, morticians, policemen, that they have collectively conspired so successfully, that they have duped, or at least confused trained American forensic specialists, with a vested interest in disproving their claims.

It’s possible, but if they have, you are so comprehensively screwed, that you might just as well pack it in. One could hardly maintain the fiction that these people want the US in Iraq under those circumstances?

here, and here, here, here, here,
here,

this though was the worst, and most compelling.

Brian, you are ranting. If you think you can hold hands and sing "We are the World" with these people...well, I invite you to try. What a simp. Your anti-American, faux anti-authoritarian, pro-multicultural socialization is foolproof against any fact I might throw your way. Anyone who points out the real and present dangers of radical Islam is a goose-stepping racist in your book, which of course makes you beyond reason.

And, if it proves that our troops didn’t ’execute’ helpless civilians, then I suppose you’ll just shrug that off and wait for the next worldview-verifying piece of propaganda.

The dirty little secret is that sick movements like the Nazis depend on people like you, Brian. You are the type of person who is susceptible to the siren-song of ideology, a tool that allows you to hate others while feeling good about it.

Could it be the eye witness accounts, the videotape footage and the avalanche of local testimony?

Or maybe that the pentagon and military investigators, hardly an objective lot, have reached the conclusion that what happened was at a minimum unlawful?

And he was either prescient or he had seen those videos and heard the "testimony" and heard the "conclusions of the pentagon and military investigators" at the same time that the bodies were brought to him? Wow.

Statements such as the one made by the morgue doctor destroy their credibility.

Just the humble opinion of one who deals with the credibility of witnesses on a daily basis.

Re: Comment #13

"I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the entire middle east co-operating as one, and with fire in their hearts and bellys wouldn’t be able to launch a land invasion of the EU, let alone the US. The Swedish Army on their own could hold them off."-B. Coughlan, 4th demention

Ah greatly appreciate duh comedy relief wit dat last line. Py yumpin yimminy, Sven go boom

It’s possible I suppose that the entire town is lying. Men, women, children, doctors, nurses, morticians, policemen,

From the video Brian entitledthis though was the worst, and most compelling. :

"Imam’s (the little girl’s) version CANNOT BE INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED." (emphasis by me) This quote is from YOUR cite, Brian.

She said her 8 year old brother was there and survived. Why can’t her version be verified by him? And who is that man sitting next to her with his hands kept off camera at all times, signalling the cameraman? Is he going to shoot her if she does not say the things he has ordered her to say? That’s never happened in Iraq before, has it? All these men, women, etc. are simply repeating her "unverified" version. The "doctors, nurses, etc. are parroting the version of a morgue doctor who’s credibility is suspect. And the best evidence of all, the bodies themselves, cannot be examined because they won’t let us.

We’ll never know what happened there. But if it walks like a fish, quacks like a fish, stinks like a fish, it’s fishy.

Brian C’s problem is the fact that the United States has the means and will to assert its power all over the world.

Is it penis envy?

Whatever the cause of his irrationality, he is able to effectively delude himself to the actual extent of America’s reach (ie being able to jerk him out of bed and put him into Gitmo) and to quite nicely blame America for all the world’s ills as he sees it.

The Swedish Army on their own could hold them off.

Mmm perhaps. IF they’ve got people willing to do this. I haven’t seen that kind of chutzpah from the Swedes yet.

By the way. The muzlims aren’t coming. They’re already here...and in Sweden.

Doh!

Guess I gotta eat my words:

Well before police tactical teams began their sweeps around Toronto on Friday, at least 18 related arrests had already taken place in Canada, the United States, Britain, Bosnia, Denmark, SWEDEN, and Bangladesh. (emphasis added of course)From The New York Post via Brian’s beloved Power Line.

Now that we’re teammates, we oughta win the gold medal in der master race eh Brian? Wahoo! That NSA wiretap stuff WORKED!!! I wish it just weren’t so ill eagle. You know civil rights for terrorists in possession of 3 tons of ammonium nitrate and all.

Come to think of it, the whole thing must have been a republican/bush conspiracy to take focus off Haditha. Who’da thought politically correct Sverge woulda cooperated with Bush though. Global consensus? Nah!

Guido I think you are wrong here. I think you know you are wrong too:-(

This is not a speculation about motive or "what if’s", this is real. I’m certainly convinced, and I wasn’t before, I dismissed it out of hand before.

That gives me, objectivity wise, oodles more street cred than people tying themselves in knots to make the victims the bad guys.

I accept though I’m flawed as regards objectivity. So I’ll take the word of the US investigators. These guys must surely feel the pressure to poke holes in the story. They will also be trying to get to the bottom of it if they are horrified enough. I think the humanity of the investigators will trump there desire to conceal the truth. Because I still consider Haditah an aberration.

I’m pushing out the boat here ..... can you meet me a 1/3 of the way? Will you accept what the investigators roll out as the truth, no further prevarication, obfuscation and denial?

I am saying I DON’T KNOW.

Well we disagree. None of the points you raised seem particularly compelling to me. With the press are all over this, the kind of stuff you highlight is really "tinfoil hat" conspiracy stuff.

Still though, that could be the subjectivity kicking in so we’ll go with your benchmark. I have that much faith in the US military to do the right thing now that they are trapped and cornered with the flashlight in their faces.

I will not decide their guilt or innocence until I hear the evidence presented in a court of law. Will I accept the verdict? Of course.

I want these guys to be innocent too, but I want justice for the victims of Haditah as well, if the marines went ape then they should be punished. This thing has such a high profile that a whitewash is very unlikely. So we’ll hang in there.

Now, what about that der master relay race? Are you in or out?

First I’ve heard of it I have to say. I’ll check it up later no time now.

Couple of points.

1) Excellent, international co-operation is exactly what we need. Sounds like dumbass is finally grasping that the world doesn’t end at the border of the US.

2) Who wouldn’t arrest suspected terrorists? Who wouldn’t, with appropriate judicial oversight, listen in on their phone conversations?

You must be confusing me with the guy from "Front for Pacifist Resistance but not with Violence. Beat me up if you Like". I’m the guy who has relentlessly proposed international co-operation, up to and including killing of heads of state if there is broad public agreement, in a legitimate forum, that the only alternative is war.

I’m a hawk Guido, I’m just a hawk of the future. Catch up.

I am saying I DON’T KNOW.

Well we disagree.

So you’ve already convicted them in your mind? And I’m the one wearing the tinfoil hat?

It’s 12:30am here. There was a great Hawaiian group in the ’70s called Cecilio and Kapono. They sang a song called "Good Night and Good Morning." Good night and good morning Brian. I’m calling it.

So you’ve already convicted them in your mind? And I’m the one wearing the tinfoil hat?

I don’t even know the names of the people involved. Do I think american marines killed civilians in cold blood in Haditha? Yes, the evidence appears overwhelming.

Guido, you really don’t see the hypocrisy of your position? The feat of hermetic intellectual compartmentalisation required to exhibit such "outrage" at the "rush to judgement"?

You and anyone else who faciliated your government in the incarceration for years without trial of the inmates of Gitmo, don’t get to lecture the rest of us on this subject, I’m sorry but you don’t. I’m just indulging you because I’m that kind of guy, but you really don’t have the right. You should be dismissed as a complete hypocrite.

The marines will get a fair trial, quite quickly, and they should. It seems likely that some of them at least, will be found guilty of some pretty bad stuff, and some perhaps many of them will be exonerated. If only the hundreds of people in Gitmo had gotten the same. When this Haditha thing is over, and the wheels of justice have ground their course, will you join me in outrage at the injustice that gitmo represents?

Hawk of the future?

Give me break.

Your words have never been hawkish at all. Moreover, you have denounced war in all forms for all reasons in many other threads, which is why I absolutely dismiss your claim of being a hawk, even if you qualify it as being somehow futuristic. Just looking at your comments in this thread make this claim ludicrous.

Brian, the world attempted national cooperation with Iraq for over 10 years, yet Saddam still plotted, still stymied, still schemed, and bribed you sophisticated Europeans for oil so he could continue plotting and scheming.

At what point would be enough, when he regained his full capacity that he had prior to Desert Storm or somewhere in between?

No, Brian, your future is full of talk leading to nothing. You can be ’seized’ in the manner that the UN Security Council was with Iraq, but it was all empty threats.

So, the hawk of the future is ...?

Well, definately not a hawk, that’s for sure.

Oh, by the way Brian, the attempt to make President Bush the new Hitler is contemptable and truly disgusting.

There is no coordinated natonal effort to disparage the Islamists/Jihadists as the Germans did to the Jews.

The truth is, which is evident from the start, is that the United States and President Bush has taken great pains to convey the message that Islam itself isn’t who we have issues with. However, you continually deny even this simple, extremely verifiable fact and rather parrot the truly disgusting crap that President Bush is Hitler and we are his brownshirts or the SS or whatever. The fact is that the Islamists/jihadists need no help in painting them as vile evil people in desperate need of killing. They are very good at doing this themselves.

It should be noted that my prediction is starting to turn out to be true.

One last thing, Brian, fighting did happen between the east and west during the cold war.

You have this unnerving quality to warp history to fit your world view.

We fought wars all over the world to fight communism, yet, again, like most things you call as truth, this extremely verifiable fact is ignored and replaced with myths.

Congrats, gents! Your logic has forced Brian to be more circumspect. He’s gone from exalting in the guilt of these soldiers (and using the f-bomb in the process), to a more conciliatory stance. Perhaps there is hope for him...an afternoon with a deprogrammer used to "turning" MoveOn.org loonies, and poof...we’ll have a rational human being again!

Guido, you really don’t see the hypocrisy of your position? The feat of hermetic intellectual compartmentalisation required to exhibit such "outrage" at the "rush to judgement"?

A straw man argument is one in which you mischaracterize the others statements and then call them names like hypocrite for taking the phony position. Brian, I never expressed outrage. You accused me of wearing a tin foil hat and I suggested I am not the one wearing the tin foil hat. We’re through.

The offer to have you join the der master relay race is withdrawn.

We’re through.

Really? This is the line you want to draw?

Overwhelming evidence links American troops to killings and my accusing you of hypocrisy on this score is what offends you deeply?

Gitmo, years, no trial. You just can’t see the hypocrisy? That is a complete crock. You see it all right, and it’s impossible to reconcile.

People are dead Guido. Innocent children, and you want to hang your hat on being called on your obvious, glaring, base hypocrisy on this issue? Fine, but I am grimly disappointed in you.

You are angry because you are boxed off. This thing has you, and your current unseemly fellow travelers very upset, because it appears to be true, and that makes you culpable, and you are.

Jesus, what happened to you people, when did you depart the human race?

I just don’t know anymore what to think of you. I’m also done.

Little Imam knew the IED was going to explode and covered her ears. CNN’s Ryan Chilcote seems somewhat skeptical of the children’s account. He says they have obviously told the story many times, which implies to us that they were coached

I don’t know why the "ears" cite went where it did. The cite I intended can be found by going to the "coached" site and clicking on "video report," then clicking on "watch a Marine’s anguish."

Of course, what do I know? I mean, all those other times that the media distorts the truth means nothing!

Then again, I am not a world traveling Europeeean (intentionally mispelling!) nor a ’learned’ doc of philosophy and just a street cop.

I am truly tired of the extremely quick to condemn folks like Brian C. I am truly tired of the media, in general.

We are America. We have the means and the will to do what we want and I don’t care what the weak-needed Brian C.’s of the world think or demand!

weak kneed!