Value of a New School heckle: 2 Cents;

Standard pay for a New School graduate: $5.50 per hour;

Cost to the reputation of New School: Immeasurable.

The problem is endemic. It is attributable to people being force fed a relentless diet of nonsense.

For example, on this site there are people who claim all kinds of patently untrue things.

That the Iraq war had a point, or that is is going "well", that there is a real "discussion" still underway about the causes of global warming, that WMD were in fact found in Iraq!! (that is an 11.5 on the bizarro scale), that Iran or muslims generally pose a serious existential threat to the west.

All of the above are not simply demonstrably untrue, but the cognitive process required to simultaneously support all of the above positions is itself riddled with contradiction.

One position requires practically no meaningful evidence, yet another must have every climatologist on the planet in lockstep to get a hearing. The examples of such disconnects make up a lenght list. There seems to exist two objective realities in the world today. That of Bush and 30+% who still appear to support him, and the rest of us.

That is what drives otherwise rational people completely round the bend. Poor behaviour though, and I’ve always had a soft spot for John McCain.

Well, Brian, American casualties have sharply decreased in Iraq...what does that indicate? If you actually read the inspectors’ reports you find that Saddam did have WMD and that he had every intention of making these weapons in the future (but only if people like you succeeded in pressuring America to back off a little). Global warming? The globe is warming, sure...the disagreement is how humans contribute to it. Given that we are only 14K years from the end of the last ice age (a very significant warming, that) and a massive extinction of animals, isn’t it fair to say that legitimate debate on this topic is important?

You see, you are spewing your own brand of nonsense...and yet I bet we wouldn’t howl you down. Leftists always think they have the moral highground, and they always think they are smarter than their knuckle-dragging foes. Both are demonstrably untrue.

As for me, I have no use for John McCain. He’s just a garden variety RINO...we need a real leader who sees the world more clearly.

Interesting paper on conflict resolution and global citizenship.

https://www.fractal.org/Bewustzijns-Besturings-Model/Fractality.pdf

Ah Dain ... Nothing has been discovered in Iraq that remotely qualifies as a WMD in the generally accepted sense, and certainly nothing that qualifies in the context the hysterical pre war propaganda.

Yes artillery shells with trace amounts of deadly chemicals have been discovered. Reasonable people do not consider this to be evidence of anything other than carelessness, and these elderly "weapons" constitute a threat only to those foolish enough to try and use them. Their use as an example of WDM, after 3 years of occupation, is indicative of how utterly absent the real thing is.

I don’t object to a reasonable debate on Climate Change. However, the debate has long sinced move from what is the cause to what must be done to moderate the effects.

There simply are very few credible people in the field that flat out deny that humans are causing global warming. There are some (credible people that is) that have genuine concerns, but they are a vanishing minority.

I will concede to "believing" that the impact of binding action will be nothing like as economically apocalyptic as some predict. However even that is based in some part on rational thought.

a) Because in Europe we already use half the energy per capita of the US, and getting you guys to that point would already be massive progress.

b) I’m a capitalist. Put restrictions on the market and it will find a way. The only ones in trouble will be the current energy cartels, and the more forward thinking of those might well be fine.

I’m not an expert on either of the above subjects so I read as much as I can and defer to majority opinion of authorities in both these subjects. Authorities that have no detectable agenda. What else can a rational adult do in a world awash in opinion and information?

I think you should do the same.

This is all very unsurprising since "social studies" teachers (prodded by groups like the NCSS) and social science and ". . . Studies" professors have encouraged their students to become "activists" out in the street unrestrained by their beastial passions rather than engage in a healthy, rational, civil debate.

If McCain was campaigning, I don’t blame those kids. At my son’s high school graduation, a black community leader gave a speech on racism. I was furious -- it was the wrong forum and he abused his invitation. Not of word of encouragement to the kids -- just "don’t be racist..." I hope he wasn’t promoting himself instead of honoring those young adults. If he was, he was wrong to do so. I’m a Conservative Republican -- this isn’t a McCain bash -- just floating a possibility...

Brian, My son is a Marine on his second tour in Iraq. If anyone knows the truth, it’s him. The means to make wmd’s have been found there consistently as well as HUGE piles of weapons caches. You make me wonder how fast you would scream had they been set off here.
As for McCain, the guy is teetering on the fence with issues, he’s trying hard to find a best ’poll’ answer and making an ass of himself in the process.
You only need to review the history of the earth to see that global warming happens on a timely schedule.

But, Susan, don’t you see, that’s the problem. Just because you are filled with outrage and disagree with a person, it does not give you the right to shout the person down in an uncivil manner. And, if we adults congratulate children for doing so, the battle is already lost.

Actually, Brian, there is no verifiable atmospheric warming. Surface measures show warming, but balloons and satelites don’t. Glaciers are melting, but some parts of the poles are actually cooling. And theoretical "band aid" fixes are now being used to address these contradictons -- the "dimming sun" is becoming popular -- so much particulate matter in the atmosphere that we are getting less solar energy, and so less heat to trap. That wouldn’t explain warming seas, however, and it suggests a simple solution to global warming (gradual reductions in CO2 and wise management of particular matter in the air).

Brian, we need to talk about the science. It’s not a done deal at all, and taking policy measures before you know how things work is really dumb (and counterproductive). The reason so many on the Left want to skip the science and move to policy is that it’s a sure-fire backdoor route to socialism and command economics. Of course you’ll deny it, but it’s the case nonetheless.

As for Iraq, Saddam had WMD and he was planning on building more. I don’t think even he knew that the stockpiles had been eradicated. And his connection to terrorism is without doubt (the other major justification for the war) -- but something you lefties never want to talk about.

Face it, these dumbass students were rude to McCain, and they would have screamed at anyone whose views they react to in a visceral way (which is just about any view that’s to the right of MoveOn.org).

My son is a Marine on his second tour in Iraq. If anyone knows the truth, it’s him. The means to make wmd’s have been found there consistently as well as HUGE piles of weapons caches.

Lisa, we hardly know each other and I have a knack for annoying people. So bear with me while I try and carefully articulate my amazement.

It is not surprising that their are munitions dumps in Iraq, but actual WMD as generally understood? That is to say chemical, biological or nuclear? I have to say I find that impossible to believe. Not simply because I’ve never found the case credible, but because if such weapons where found, it would go a long way to justifying the invasion.

Surely if anything significant had been recovered, Bush and Co. would, justifiably, be shoving it in our skeptical faces? We’d never hear the end of it.

I suspect this is a genuine misunderstanding between yourself and your son. Large conventional munitions dumps are not WMD.

Or the term "means" has been used in the broadest possible sense. Any marginally industrialised country has the "means" to make WMD, in fact most modern kitchens have the "means" to make small amounts of chemical weaponry. It’s not quite the same thing as having vast vats of stuff that could kill tens of thousands.

What exactly is he referring too?

Dain ... we will simply have to disagree.

I’m satisfied that I’ve researched these issues to a reasonable degree, and you seem to feel the same way.

I at least have the comfort of occupying the majority position as defined by the people most likely to have access to the relevant info, and the expertise to make these judgements.

I also have the dubious benefit of seeing my own worst fears realised in the Iraq war, which is why I was viscerally opposed to it from the outset. That leaves me with the sanctimonous sense, that in at least one real world instance, my judgement has been proven vastly superior to yours.

So thanks, but no thanks.

it does not give you the right to shout the person down in an uncivil manner. And, if we adults congratulate children for doing so, the battle is already lost.

Tony, you are so completely right about this.

I’m embarrased about my own little frission of glee on hearing the news.

It’s a timely reminder that yelling until both parties are red faced and mutually spittle flecked really doesn’t get you anywhere.

But it’s so hard .....

Well McCain IS to blame for glow ball warming...here’s proof (Never mind that reference to the wrong planet.)

And McCain IS responsible for the fact that WMDs, found in Jordan, courtesy of alqaeda, via Syria, late of Iraq, intended to kill 20,000 people, have been ignored by the Mostly Socialist Media and therefore didn’t exist. Sorry, make that 80,000 people.

If those rascally kids at New School want to demonstrate their ignorant, propaganda filled, lack of education to the world, by gum, they’ve got that right.

Brian, up until a few years ago people thought ulcers were caused by stomach acid...we now know that a bacteria causes 90% of these problems. Lots of people were smuggly comfortable with the old view, but it didn’t make them right.

As for Iraq, I for one didn’t think it would go real smoothly. But Saddam had to go, particularly in the post 9/11 world. It was unfinished business.

It was unfinished business.

It was much more than just unfinished business.

Good links on #13 Guido, but I still doubt they will convince people like Brian.

Same for #15.

I still doubt they will convince people like Brian.

A person who HATES someone or something, such as President Bush or the Republican party, based exclusively on a faulty premise, such as the lack of WMDs in Iraq, in order to sustain that hatred, has only 2 choices:

They can either continue to believe in the premise, despite overwhelming proof that the premise is false; or,

They can find a new premise.

Realization that they were wrong to have hated is not an option.

The new premise for some, one of whom shall remain nameless, but you know who you are Brian, is the need to exercise the fantasy of global consensus in deciding to go to war, ignoring the fault in the premise that consensus with heads of state, who surreptitiously aid and abet the enemy, is impossible.

My God you people really are in trouble, and as reality intrudes you sem to retreat further and further into the delusion.

Socialist Media!!? Guys all these lunatic fringe media links ... come on.

I’m afraid you are right, I don’t accept your "evidence" like I don’t accept the evidence of alien abduction presented by the guy drooling on himself at the bus stop. Don’t you poor dupes ever get tired of being so consistently wrong?

If the evidence were there it would be shoved in our faces daily, and rightly so, not tucked away on some hacks blog. What you are suggesting is absurd.

This gentlemen, is evidence. https://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/PRhaditha.html

Can you grasp the difference?

Foisting McCain on the graduating students of The New School - right after he’s finished sucking up to Jerry Falwell, no less! - is almost like the administration of Patrick Henry College selecting Nancy Keenan of NARAL to give the commencement address for its graduates. Might make for an interesting event at any other point in the academic calendar, but not on the day that should focus on the students and their achievements.

Coughlin, did you read or understand the very last sentence in Murtha’s comment?

Just curious.

Coughlin, did you read or understand the very last sentence in Murtha’s comment?

I did, and I believe him. In fact when this atrocity was first aired, I dismissed it out of hand. I think I even posted something to that effect on NLT.

I do not believe that the US military would knowingly target civilians in cold blood. What appears to have happened here is that troops, distressed over the death of a colleague, went on a short, but deadly rampage. Then a ham fisted effort was made to cover it up.

CIA, NSA etc. is of course another ball game. It’s like the difference between the wehrmacht and waffen SS. Air bombardment is of course in it’s own peculiar sterile niche.

My point in posting the link was to illustrate the difference between rumour and reality.

When powerline/free republic claim x it is not evidence of anything. When a respected US congressman with no agenda, and established ties to the military comes out with something like this, i.e. the diametrical opposite of what you would expect .... lets just say, it’s another ball game.

Realization that they were wrong to have hated is not an option. Comment 18 by Uncle Guido

I don’t accept your "evidence" Comment 19 by Brian Coughlan

They can either continue to believe in the premise, despite overwhelming proof that the premise is false or...they can find a new premise.
Comment 18 by Uncle Guido

And what’s Brian’s new premise? Murtha.

A person can knock down one reason to hate after another. The hater will always come up with more. The hatred is no more rational, but just as real.

So, let’s knock down the Murtha has no agenda, he hates Bush, so I can too, mantra.

Next premise please?

Guido ... tsk, tsk ... more of the same right wing hacks? Save yourself the trouble, or get some real information.

Oh. And when the hater can’t attack the message, he attacks the messanger by saying things like . more of the same right wing hacks? Be forewarned: this is just a stalling technique while the hater is coming up with a new premise.

blahh, blahh yah got nothing.

"In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world -- and we will not allow it." - President George W. Bush addressing the AEI, Washington Hilton Hotel, February 26, 2003

"No one was more surprised than I that we didn’t find (WMD’s)." General Tommy Franks December 2nd 2005.

"It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong." George W. Bush December 14 2005

It was all nonsense, and the chief architects of the nonsense have long since abandoned it.

You remind me of a Northern Irish loyalist, rabbiting on about his loyalty to the Crown, when on the UK mainland they don’t even pretend it’s relevant anymore.

A tragic aging foot soldier, left behind on some island in the pacific. It’s over, you lost, your Bush has abandoned you. Poor baby.

They can either continue to believe in the premise, despite overwhelming proof that the premise is false or...they can find a new premise. Comment 18 by Uncle Guido

Or they can flip-flop between premises.

So, let’s knock down the "he had no WMDs" premise....Oh, wait...already did that in comment 15.

Yeah just keep those fingers in the ears, and repeat : Bush has not deserted my WMD myth, Bush has not deserted my WMD myth. LOL. Pitiful, really.

Looks like my turn to extend condolences for your state of mind:-)

I’ll just throw in random zingers to throw your conservative mindset, yet slavish worship of Bush on edge shall I?

By some estimates, the total costs of the Iraq War on the US economy could top $2 trillion - youch!!!!

Gremlin in the microwave effect eh? And all for nothing, worse than nothing really given all the death and carnage.
https://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0110/dailyUpdate.html

Or this ... The widespread use of torture by Iraqi security forces

https://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/26/iraq10053.htm

But it really was worth it to "uncover" 4 liters of degraded Sarin gas wasn’t it? The 2 troops exposed had very upset tummies! No really they did!
They had to take the whole day off.

Oh yeah. WMD.

Ah, the "you yanks are spending too much of your money on Iraq" premise. I know you’d rather we spend our money on ... well ... Indian Ocean tsunnami victims... or ... Pakistani earthquake victims... or ... victims of Islamic terrorists in the Sudan rather than victims of Islamic terrorists in Iraq. And, hey, you know better than we what to do with our money, don’t you...Bill.

Shiite-run death squads run out of the Interior Minitry that are accused of committing numerous massacres of Sunni Arabs

https://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/world/14083330.htm

OK, so they are killing each other. The important thing is that they are doing it with conventional weapons, not WMD.

Plus they are free. Free to kill, die and be blown up on the way to school. Freedumb is important.

In a speech before the World Affairs Council of Charlotte, NC, on April 7, 2006, President Bush stated that he "fully understood that the intelligence was wrong, and [he was] just as disappointed as everybody else" when U.S. troops failed to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq

https://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060406-112119-5897r.htm

April 7th 2006!!! Damn thats like, 6 weeks ago!!!

Here is your Ass, feel free to use it as novel headgear. Goodnight.

Hmm...and what would have been so great about leaving Saddam in power? Yea, it gets messy creating a different kind of society when different ethnic/religious groups are fearful of the future. So? Do you have an alternative long-term strategy for preventing future 9/11’s? And please, don’t say something assinine like "mind our own business." Hard to do in an increasingly interconnected (and interdependent) world.

The troops didn’t find them, therefore they didn’t exist! They weren’t found in Iraq. Disappointing.

They were found in Jordan.

I have prosecuted people for murder with the use of firearms where the firearms were never found. Maybe those convictions should be overturned because the guns did not exist? I have prosecuted others for murder with a firearm where the gun was found, but not in the place it was expected to be because he had given the gun to a friend who hid the gun. The friend was later caught and led police to the gun. The President was disappointed the evidence was found somewhere other than at the scene of the crime. Find some other premise to hate him.

Anyway, back to civility after yet another fruitful conversation with Brian about the war. When I went to the amusement park tonight with my kids, a two-year-old boy tripped and fell and even hit his face against the pavement. A group of young . . . punks, thugs - take your pick . . . actually started howling in laughter like they were watching Comedy Central and pointing at the kid. With this thread I mind, I asked them, "You’re laughing?! You’re laughing at the little kid for falling down?! They were stopped dead in their tracks because their unfortunate lawless lives have no authority, structure, or virtue to control their licentiousness. They ended up laughing at me in the same manner, but I imagine, if they are lucky, that they might remember this day in about ten years and have it change their lives in some small, civil way. I fear that it might be in their prison cells as they think back to the public delight they took in others’ misfortune.

On a somewhat related note, another kid in a line was wearing a Communist chic Che Guevara shirt. I thought it was wonderfully ironic to think that he was in a consumer culture paradise of capitalism owned by a major corporation while sporting a Commie shirt. Then again, Che’s image is a consumerist name-brand sellable to gullible, ignorant teen-agers.

With people like this, who notices the tattoes and pink hair anymore?

Anyway, back to civility after yet another fruitful conversation with Brian about the war.

The thread did get off topic, but it is illustrative of the problem with political discourse in your country.

I rarely find people in the EU insisting, in the teeth of overwhelming evidence, that x,y or z are true. This is a pathology not exclusive to US political discourse, but incredibly pervasive now.

This infuriates people, and that is the issue you are dealing with here.

The example of the little boy and the "thugs" is a common or garden "it wasn’t like this in the old days" anecdote. Observable in practically all cultures, at all times. Although I grant you those guys were jerks.

I rarely find people in the EU insisting, in the teeth of overwhelming evidence, that x,y or z are true.

Right you are.

Now you are totally loosing the plot buddy:-) We have our lunatic fringe sure, and you’ve dug up a lovely sampling of them.

What’s really funny though is the last post where you have some American writing about the French Riots posting the usual "the muslims are coming, the muslims are coming!!!" hysterical rubbish. He is then roundly rebutted in the comments section by .... yes. People who live there:-) Thanks for the confirmation.

C’mon Gudio, you win some and you loose some, you’ve lost this one.

I’ve tried to post only the most reliable sources, your own president for example, telling the truth through gritted teeth. Or the guy in charge of running the war. Or senators who have a decades long history of bipartisanship and an established relationship with the military. Or real news organisations. Or Nobel Laureate economists.

What have you presented? Pajamamedia, jihadwatch or blogs by non entities so obscure, they don’t even get a mention in sourcewatch. Good grief man, have some dignity.

Back on topic:
In between snipes at my good friend (still friends?) Brian, I’ve been wondering whether I would be feeling the same anger at the New School Kool Aid Kids if they’d heckled Hillary instead of McCain. In all honesty to myself, the answer is no, but it’s easy to rationalize that McCain made great sacrifices for his country before he became a pandering pol, whereas Hillary did not. Still, they’re both senators and the office deserves respect, even if the office holder does not. So, what if it’d been, say, Lieberman?

I’ve tried to post only the most reliable sources, your own president for example, telling the truth through gritted teeth.

Back off topic:

So, what did you post of the words of President Bush? That WMDs were not found in Jordan? that the WMDs found in Jordan were not put there by al Qaeda? That they didn’t get them from Syria? That Syria didn’t get them from Iraq?

No, you posted that he expressed disappointment that U.S. troops did not find them and disappointment that the WMDs were not found in Iraq.

You also posted that GWB said some of the intelligence was wrong. No argument there, some of it WAS wrong. But that does not equate to there being no WMDs spirited into Syria, making their way into Jordan via al qaeda. Neither does it equate to an admission that no WMDs were spirited into Syria, etc.

Finally, your criticism of the blogs I have cited ignores the fact that every one of those blogs cite their sources, so it is their sources you should criticize, not the blogs themselves.

It’s nearly 2:00 am here. What the h*ll am I doing talking to a Bushwhacker? Talk to you tomorrow.

In between snipes at my good friend (still friends?) Brian

You betcha! With the coming collapse of the crypto-facist Zionist inspired Corporatocracy of America, resources for radical life extension will be freed up and we’ll live to a ripe old 350. How we’ll laugh looking back on these primitive times:-)

Still, they’re both senators and the office deserves respect, even if the office holder does not. So, what if it’d been, say, Lieberman?

Seriously though, I think it was out of order. The worst is I did get a kick out seeing it happen, and then felt guilty. Probably because McCain is my Liebermann.

Look at what an unrelenting thrill I got from the Colbert thing. No guilt there because I don’t feel a molecule of empathy for Bush. Sigh ... what a hypocrite, it does make you despair about objective reality. Is there such a thing?

Saw an article recently that claimed people got pleasure from dismissing the rational argument of the "other".

That is to say, when being presented argument, the parts of brain concerned with rational analysis were dormant, and the pleasure centres were active.

The conclusion being that the listener got a kick out of dismissing the "others" arguments, without subjecting the content to rational analysis. Now that is scary. Can’t find the blasted article though.

Found it!! This is scary "is my brain really my own" stuff.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm

https://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/01/a_shocker_partisan_thought_is.php

So, if the complaint’s true and McCain was campaigning, out of politeness and respect for his position as a Senator, everyone has to just "take it?" I don’t agree. That’s not the American flavor -- even when I disagree with the message. We protest, we object, we make noise. We are not a polite people in general when ruffled. I don’t know whether McCain was politicing or not --I haven’t read the transcipt of the event. So, my comments could be so much blather, so don’t take them too seriously. Many comments say the students and audience should’ve respected the senator’s position -- did he show the students and audience respect with his speech? He may have -- they may have been overzealous louts. I’m just suggesting that IF we complained more when these people in positions we’re supposed to respect don’t give us what they should, we might have a more responsive set of representatives.

Susan, that’s a scary comment on the American character (if true). Moreover, your self-proclaimed conservative Republican identity doesn’t seem to sit well with "not being a polite people" or simply "making noise" letting our passions run amok. Civility is not given simply because someone is perceived to give it to us. It is a freely-given gift to all people by a civilized person.

I have a proposal...no more politicians as commencement speakers! They almost always pander (if they are running or about to run), and they are typically vacuous. We should have scientists and other boring types as commencement speakers...tell the kids how it really is "out there."

Brian, you actually looked for lame psychological "research," telling us what our grandmothers knew already? I’ll go further (and I don’t even have a Ph.D. is psychology!) -- people pick ideologies that correspond to their gut, and over time these ideologies become integral parts of their identities...if you attack my beliefs, you attack my existence!

Once again, we can see that rational choice theory is a load of crap (unless you think "rational" only means "good/bad for ME"). Most people are not reasoning creatures because they conflate the subject with the object.

To get more "analysis," I suggest you contact FMG.

And Brian, please learn to use the blog tools, lad. When you have a link you want to share, clink on "link to another web page" -- erase whatever’s in the box, paste in your link, hit return...erase again and type in any reference words you want. It saves your readers a lot of cutting and pasting...and its polite. Surely you want to make it as easy as possible for us trogs across the pond?

Using M.R.I. scanners, neuroscientists have now tracked what happens in the politically partisan brain when it tries to digest damning facts about favored candidates or criticisms of them. The process is almost entirely emotional and unconscious, the researchers report, and there are flares of activity in the brain’s pleasure centers when unwelcome information is being rejected.

I wonder how this would apply to someone who HATES a politician and how he reacts when overwhelming evidence is put before him that his reasons to hate the politician are unfounded....Hmmmmmmm?

overwhelming evidence

Are we still talking about WMD in Iraq?

You genuinely think the evidence is overwhelming? You don’t want to downgrade that?

More to the point, Brian, do you disagree that Saddam had WMD and did intend to resume his programs once "the heat was off?" And given that the "sanctions regime" was corrupt and falling apart, how would you have stopped him? Remember, Osama Bin Laden’s main "reason" for attacking us was the presence of U.S. troops on Saudi sand...and our troops were there busily NOT attaching Saddam. Something had to give. How should we have handled it...I expect a sane answer, please.

I expect a sane answer, please.

Oh, please. Don’t get him started on targeting individuals to be brought to justice again.

Re comment 47:

Yes, we are still talking, in part, about WMDs in Iraq. Comment 13 is just a tiny sampling of the evidence uncovered since the documents have been found in Iraq. There is no mention of Georges Sada. Neither is there mention of the inspectors who were delayed and misdirected while Saddam’s henchmen moved the evidence from one place to another. Neither is there mention of Saddam’s efforts to mislead and thwart the U.N.

It is also about Saddam’s commitments to terrorism, a tiny sampling of which is contained in comment 15.

Finally, it is about the politically partisan brain when it tries to digest favorable evidence about a hated President or other politician, the emotional and unconscious process and the flares of activity in the brain’s pleasure centers when unwelcome evidence is being rejected..

You cited the article, Brian. I’m just using it to psychoanalyze you.

Lads, lads, lads.

Justice ...blahh .. individual ... blahh ... hegemony .... global ... justice .... blahh ... unfair .... blaah ... one rule for all ... blahh military expenditure .... blahh ... WMD? ... deaths ..... blahh ..... cost benefit analysis ..... blahh ... stack up? .... $2 Trillion!!!? .... blahh.

"Stop quoting the laws to us. We carry swords." Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus.

That should cover it, judging by the take up so far, you may well get more out of that:-)

A sane response? You’re right, UG, maybe that’s asking too much of Brian.