Strengthening Constitutional Self-Government

No Left Turns

NSA data mining

Here’s the USA Today article that kicked off the latest communications surveillance furor, which is described here, here, here, and here.

The WaPo article notes that some of this is old news, and the timing of the article--connected with the Michael Hayden nomination--is surely a little suspicious. Also worth noting is Power Line’s observation that this report further compromises our efforts to keep track of terrorist communications.

This Volokh Conspiracy post, together with the comments, offers a little insight. And if you read the newspaper articles carefully, it’s not clear that there’s any illegality or much of a threat to anyone’s privacy. In other words, my initial inclination, subject to change, is that much of the sound and fury about this is politically motivated, intended further to wound the Bush Administration. The incidental side effect of this is, I repeat, to give terrorists further information about what we’re doing to track their communications.

Update: A quickie poll suggests that the politics of this issue currrently favors the Bush Administration. Some portion of those polled seem to favor the program, but also approve of public disclosure of it, which defeats the program’s purpose. Oh well.

The Congressional reaction, further detailed here, is predictable. The disclosures will galvanize and mobilize the Democratic base, enable Senators to posture and pontificate during the Hayden confirmation hearings, generate bad press for the Bush Administration, and yet--perhaps--actually help the Republicans overall. Stated another way, if Democrats attempt to exploit this issue, it’s evidence not only that they’re not serious about security policy, but that they’re not capable of making sound political judgments. For more on both these points, see this article.

Update #2: Some of the complex legal issues are canvassed by Orin Kerr and his commenters here, a post I missed when I first wrote about this issue. Suffice it to say that there are plausible arguments on both sides; the issue is whether the Article II executive powers and the AUMF come into play in such a way as to overcome all the other legal subtleties.

Discussions - 82 Comments

Apparently Mary McCarthy is not the only saboteur in our midst. It’s astonishing that these media folks think they can broadcast intelligence secrets to the enemy with impugnity. It’ll be real interesting to see whether Qwest sales skyrocket, and if so, who’s buying.

There’s no question, phone companies can, if they choose, give their records to law enforcement and intelligence agencies without warrants, key phrase being "their records." These records belonged to the phone companies, not the callers or recipients of calls.

This will turn out to be yet another example of a dog unleashed on the President, turning around and biting the MSM and Patrick Leahy types.

Forget about how Dems might try to integrate this issue into their election strategy. What you guys should be worried about right now is the fact that apparently tens of millions of Americans are talking to and working with Al Qaeda!!

I’m not worried about "tens of millions" of terror suspects, I’m worried about the small cells of four or five that are plotting an attack on a major U.S. site as I write this and the ability of U.S. intelligence to root them out.

As usual you guys are determinedly missing the point. Your government breaks it’s own laws. Repeatedly.


As a prosecutor Guido, surely this must be ringing alarm bells?


You are not at war. It’s a myth, to facilitate Bush and Co. doing whatever ... well whatever they like. By continuing to support him you are condoning and facilitating criminal behaviour, and I’m not talking about namby pamby international law here.


What has you so enthralled that you cannot see the plain truth?

Brian,
I usually think you an idiot, but for once I must agree. I wonder at which point, which may not be the domestic spying program, conservatives will understand that sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease. Yes, I do believe that the current programs of the government do keep us safer from a terrorist attack. At the same time, I think that this President is fundamentally altering the duties, roles, and powers of the executive branch and government in general in a way that does not bode well for the liberal, market-based traditions of this country.

Brian, I usually think you an idiot, but for once I must agree.


Umm ... thanks?

While I question the validity and legality of general phone records being obtained by the US Government at this time, I would have to differ with Brian on the idea he has that we, that is the U.S., are not at war.

I’m sorry Brian, but when was your country attacked by Islamic jihadist terrorists? Remind me again when members of your own family came under attack by suicidal terrorist pilots? Why does anyone forget that 9/11 was not the first attack on U.S. citizens &/or property by such radical groups? How do you define war?

Whether or not the President has such powers as to obtain every phone record for every call made - during war or not - is certainly the issue at large, and should be considered with a careful and detailed eye.

How do you define war?


Never mind me, here is the Webster dictionaries definition:
1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict


So who are you at war with? Why are you continuing to kill Iraqis, why are cheerleading the rush kill Iranians? Are you at war with these countries? No. You are at war with a will o the wisp, and it appears to be sucking the soul out of your country.


The 3000 Americans killed on 9/11 represent a tragedy, but it’s a mere pinprick in comparison to carnage that the US has unleashed in Iraq. Or the really savage damage to civil liberties and governance in the US.


Americans need to grow up and stop thrashing about like spoiled children.


The solution to terrorism has never been and will never be military. The injustices that feed the rage that makes people do these awful things cannot be eradicated by war, unless you are willing to kill every single person living in poverty on the planet. I take it thats off the table?


Terrorism is an extreme form of crime, it has a source, it has a reason and it has solutions, that don’t typically involve spending $1 trillion and killing 100,000 people.


Europeans are familiar with the problem, and we have largely worked through it. This is almost certainly why European countries have a more equitable distribution of wealth. If someone has passable health care, is well fed and adequately housed, they may still covet your plasma screen television, but are they desperate enough to kill for it? I’ll give you a clue. NO.


There seems to be a stirring again globally of real visionaries who are trying to work out the details of our mutual future. You guys need to snap out of the trance, wake up, buck up and take your place at the table with the rest of grownups.

"We’re not at war." Let me second the "idiot" comment!

1. Bin Laden was a pauper?

2. We’re not at war?

3. Europe is equal, so there was no Muslim terrorism against Spain and Britain? No al-Qaeda members living
there?

4. Do you want a hug so that we can start world peace?

Do you want a hug so that we can start world peace?


Oh pleeeease, you big cudwly american crybaby.


:-)

That was cute, but as usual no answers.

No answers? My that stung.


1. Bin Laden was a pauper?


No. He wasn’t. However Bin Ladin and his ilk, recruit from the ranks of the destitute and desperate. This isn’t rocket science Tony, don’t be a tiresome literalist.


2. We’re not at war?


No. You are not at war. You are at best running a mechanised slaughter in which US casualties barely peak above the annual accidental deaths for the 80’s and 90’s. The real casualties are civilians. Just not american civilians, so thats ok.


3. Europe is equal, so there was no Muslim terrorism against Spain and Britain? No al-Qaeda members living there?


Yes we are at risk too, and we are even closer (oooooh scary). However, you’ll note, we are not dropping bombs on anyone, and we’ve had the good sense to boot most of the governments out of power that did.


That cover it?

Joe Scarborough (of "Scarborough Country") has been lashing out against this latest revelation - talking of Big Brother and such; asking how 200 million Americans could be implicated as Al Qaeda operatives.

And we get this from New Gingrich (!!!), of all people:

"I’m not going to defend the indefensible."..."But I don’t think the way they’ve handled this can be defended by reasonable people. It is sloppy. It is contradictory, and frankly for normal Americans, it makes no sense to listen to these three totally different explanations."

Time to take Newt off the Ashbrook Christmas card list!

Poverty or inequality does not beget terrorism. That is a lie and a myth. Please, just because you want to promote your socialist view does not give you the justification to distort the truth.

We are at war with those entities such as Al Qaeda and its supporters, of which Iraq was clearly one. And, please, don’t attempt to assert we should then be fighting militarily Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. If you cared to payed attention to the President, we will fight this war in may different ways, of which the military is just one.

This war is not like most wars, thusly, the Webster’s definition or any traditional definition, will not apply.

What exactly has Europed worked through in regards to terrorism?

There is no objective proof that what Europe is doing is stopping terrorism or even mitigating it.

And here it is. My, my isn’t Joe an unpatriotic, un-American, treasonous bad guy!! How dare he trash George Walker Bush, the visionary to lead into a glorious and heavily armed future....


We won’t let them take our President will we? We won’t let them impeach this great man?


He may have broken the law, well ok, all the laws. Except that one about bestiality, that’s a scurrilous slander!!! But he did it all for us!!! For freedumb!!!


You know, I think Colbert was on to something. This feels better, and it’s more fun than self righteous lecturin’. Prepare to be ham fistedly lampooned going forward.


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/05/12.html#a8261

Also, Brian, I find it very disingenuous from you that you support a police/criminal view of fighting terrorism for such a view, as practiced by your governmnet, UK and Ireland, has had draconian anti-civil liberty measures put into place (Terrorism Act 2006).

There is no objective proof that what Europe is doing is stopping terrorism or even mitigating it.


You are almost certainly correct. I frequently lament the fact that the British failed to get the bit between their teeth in the 70’s.


If only they had sent in the tanks, machined gunned the protesters, and bombed Dublin, we wouldn’t have had to endure 30 years of intermittent terrorism.


If only hotter heads had prevailed, we wouldn’t now enjoy the 2nd highest GDP in the world (Luxembourg pipped us). We could have been sitting in the ashes picking our scabs with shards of glass, secure in the knowledge that the utter destruction of our country had delivered us from the blight of terrorism. Ah bliss.


Those blasted Brits! Thinking rationally in the face of the relentless IRA threat!! What must they have been ... well ..thinking?


Don’t get me started on the Spanish, they should have carpet bombed those uppity Basque separatists years ago. I mean all told what’s it been in the last 20 years? They should have taken a firmer tack, nampy, pampy socialists.


You are so right, the European approach is all wrong. We can learn an enormous amount from Iraq, and we have. We have.

UK and Ireland, has had draconian anti-civil liberty measures put into place (Terrorism Act 2006).


Oh yes, it’s the only way. They frequently arrest and kill these people (torture them first though) it’s the only way.


Just like you guys dealt with nasty German fellow, Khaled el-Masri. The Irish government regularly have to do the same thing ... though the names of the bad guys escape me.


The utter absence of arrests, detentions and torture allegations against the Irish government must be down to their world renowned security apparatus. Yes that’s it.

Poverty or inequality does not beget terrorism. That is a lie and a myth.


Course it doesn’t. What would people mired in poverty be doing attacking the perceived source of their oppression? Thats crrrrrazzzy behaviour.


I mean, I’ve actually heard they like that poverty stuff. No really. They love the lack of sanitation, the hunger and especially the death of the occasional child. Heck they’ve got bushels of those cute little fellas, whats one less? One less mouth to feed thats what! You have to laugh.


What could possibly have them so riled up, that they’ed up and blow themselves and some unlucky GI to little tiny smithereens? They’ve got sooooo much to live for.


It’s a mystery alright, an impenetrable mystery.

This war is not like most wars, thusly, the Webster’s definition or any traditional definition, will not apply.


Sez you. Bollocks I say, and so says the rest of the world.


Every little boy thats ever punched another little boy in the face uses the same lame justification. I did it because ... he hit me, he took my apple, he pushed me, he looked at me funny.


coz miss, but miss .... coz!!! COZ.


It’s not cute when they do it, but it’s really gag class unattractive to have it wheeled to justify wholesale slaughter.

We are at war with those entities such as Al Qaeda and its supporters, of which Iraq was clearly one.


Oh dear .. did you say supporters, and then clearly? Hysterical laughter.


Fuzzy 7 year old photocopies qualify as proof do they? Recounting activities, actions and plans that never transpired? Ohhhhh compelling. Tell me more .... I listening with bated breath.

Why the hangup on Iraq?

Was Afghanistan wrong also?

According to the various conversations we have had on this site detailing your logic, Afghanistan would be seen as wrong. Moreover, any military action would be seen as wrong for, according to you, any military action, aka war, is wrong.

Oh, in regards to the EU’s GDP (purchasing power parity), which is what I am going to assume you were talking about ...

Sure, it is ranked 2nd underneath ... ahem ... the United States ..., but its GDP growth rate is low and its GDP per capita is about half of the US.

Again, you haven’t shown why the policing method, the method the United States took up till 9-11, would be better.

Also, I don’t care what you or the rest of the world thinks about the War on Terror. I truly don’t. You can rant, you can yell, you can participate in every tin-foil hat conversation, but I do not care.

It is not the world that determines if we, the United States, is in war with anyone or authorizes us going to war. It is not the UN, not the EU, and most definately, not Brian Coughlan.

Lastly, Brian, stop with the outdate social theories on why terrorism happens. Moreover, the justifications given by the terrorists normally belies such assertions as yours and, most importantly, their actions absolutely belies any assertions that they doing it for civil rights, poverty, etc. Terrorists don’t care who they target, even the ones who state that they are fighting against injustive.

You know, Brian, it is one thing to actually overthrow a despotic regime via terrorism and another thing entirely to state that terrorism will be used to subjugate others.

Now, explain again, Brian, how the terrorists we are currently fighting are overthrowing a despotic regime, which I going to assume is the United States?

Brian, sad to say, but the terrorists we are fighting are not talking about poverty, equal rights, and other things like that. For them it is about religion.

Mind if I go back to the original topic for just a sec. here guys?

As a prosecutor Guido, surely this must be ringing alarm bells? Comment 4 by Brian Coughlan

Not even a tinkle, Brian. The wiretap issue was much closer than this one. Phone companies can, if they choose, give their records to law enforcement and intelligence agencies without warrants.

O.K. back on the topic this degenerated into:

Guys,we’ve flogged this horse to bloody strips. Comment weeks ago by Bushwhacker.

In August 1996, Osama bin Laden put out a fatwa, a declaration of war, in which he explains why the Islamic fight must be taken against the United States, the West, and Israel.

In the fatwa he clearly distorts the truth about Muslim suffering, iniquity, and injustice and attributes them almost solely to the "Zionist-Crusader alliance".

He states that he wants the West out of the Holy Lands (Saudi Arabia and Israel), the elimination of Israel, and wants us, the West, and all other non-believers to go to Islam. Moreover, he wants us to not live under secular law, but rather Shariah law.

He clearly states that we, the United States, have no taste for real conflict and while he bemoans the police tactics used to date, he is confident that the Islamists will win because of our historic lack of will to fight.

’Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu."

- Osama bin Laden, fatwa, August 1996, "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places."

You see, Brian, we are not fighting against people who are clamoring about equality, or the situation of the poor, or whatever social theory you like to assert. We are fighting against an enemy who are religious nuts.

They saw how we did fight them much, if at all, whenever they attacked by terrorism or militaries. They bemoaned the arrests of the bethren, but realized that the police methad was not stopping them.

More attacks came after this fatwa and in 2000-2001, the attacks increased in frequency and ferocity culminating in 9-11. At which time, we finally woke up.

Brian, what you espouse is not fighting terrorim, but ensuring the success of the Osamas of the world.

So, go ahead and preach about the ills of America, the United States, the fighting in Iraq, etc, but make no mistake, it is the United States who has made Osama choke on his words!

Two points regarding the NSA data-mining and the supposed domestic spying ...

1. Project Echelon

2. Our local supermarket collects more information during our visits than what the current NSA "spying" program does on our calls.

I know we have hashed and rehashed and rehashed some more the whys of 9-11, terrorism, and Iraq, but, sorry, I can’t let folks continually put erroneous statements out there without responding.

I mean, I don’t post here a lot anymore, but when I do it is normally to counter such statements that I responded to on this thread.

I don’t have a problem with Brian Coughlan and I am not targeting him out specifically. It happens that we are on opposing sides of thought on terrorims, 9-11, and Iraq (and actually on a lot more subjects) and I respond when I feel it is warranted.

"This notion has been commented on so often since 11 September that a comment on its significance was called for: this was a declaration of war by transnational terrorist network that the United Nations recognized, for the first time in its history, justified a military response"
- Thérèse Delpech (Director for Strategic Affairs at Frances Atomic Energy Commission, Commissioner at UNMOVIC, and Associate Resercher at CERI), International terrorism and Europe, Chaillot Paper 56 - December 2002, The European Union Institute for Security Studies

This was a footnote to a statement regarding 9-11 and the return of war.

We are fighting against an enemy who are religious nuts.


So that’s what the whole thing boils down to eh? Forehead smackingly simple! Here’s me thinking the whole time its a complex web of interlocking cause and effect!!!! Did your gut tell you that? Do you know, you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? Well you probably do:-)


That pithy analysis is as accurate and relevant when brought to bear on the GOP, as it is when brought to bear on the disparate, constantly in flux loose grouping of ... oh wait actually, it makes more sense when brought to bear on the GOP. LMAO!!


Oh and I was talking about the GDP of Ireland, not in a juvenile "my willy is bigger than your willy" kind of way, but rather as an illustration of the benefits of not indiscriminately blowing stuff up. That was a funny misunderstanding and very telling.


You know, Brian, it is one thing to actually overthrow a despotic regime via terrorism and another thing entirely to state that terrorism will be used to subjugate others. Now, explain again, Brian, how the terrorists we are currently fighting are overthrowing a despotic regime, which I going to assume is the United States?.


I finally see the light!!! Some terrorists are OK then? Especially those who bomb from the living room, air conditioned safety of a B2 at 50,000 feet? That’s a given. I mean absolute war right? Kill enough of these suckers and they’ll get the message. Killing is … um … wrong? Or is it you kill 1 of ours and we’ll kill 100 of yours, no wait that was the Nazis.


Islamic terrorists are truly omnipotent villains with chillingly attainable dreams of world domination, genocide, and the obliteration of the United States. Unless we stand loyally behind George Bush as he takes the extreme and unprecedented measures necessary to protect us from these extreme and unprecedented threats, we are DOOMED.


Finally I get it!!! Fear is the hallmark of courage, and a rational and calm approach is a mark of cowardice Thus we should live in a state of passive, uncritical compliance in exchange for promises of protection. Oh man you’ve really opened my eyes today. So being a big killer cry baby makes complete sense now!!!


Thanks Dale.

Not even a tinkle, Brian. The wiretap issue was much closer than this one. Phone companies can, if they choose, give their records to law enforcement and intelligence agencies without warrants.


I haven’t the faintest idea of the rights and wrongs of the thing ... but you appear to be pretty lonely in that position, coppertop.


And getting lonelier all the time. Lotso conservatives and former friends of freedumb taking issue with this situation. Soon fewer people will have voted for George Bush than voted for Adolf Hitler. Hey maybe the machine’s were rigged!!?

No reason to be condensceding, Brian.

Read the words from the Islamists themselves. It is evident they are nuts regarding their religion, however that doesn’t make them insane or crazy.

The religious right in the United States will not beat a 6 year old for stepping on a religious rug or symbol as was recently done to a 6 year old girl in Mosque by a Islamic Cleric.

The religious right will not beat a woman for going outside the home without a male chaperone nor will allow several teen girls die in a fire because they could not be let out of the burning building due to Islamic religious reasons. Example after example can be placed here detailing how brutal the Islamists are and I suspect you already have heard of many more instances and already know this.

The comparison is not valid and extremely insulting.

President Bush has stated that we are fighting these terrorists in many different ways, of which the military is just one. To deny the use of the military to fight terrorism is to deny your country a tool.

Why in the world are you advocating such a position? The President has never advocated that we won’t use police powers and methods and neither have I. I, however, have asserted that such measures are extremely lacking in the fight against terrorists, especially the ones that we are concerned with, the Islamists.

United Nations recognized, for the first time in its history, justified a military response


And that means an open ended blank cheque "fill in the amount here" free pass for his excellency GWB. Yippee.


Besides I thought you didn’t care about the opinions of anyone other than those randomly born in the US? Why the unseemly thrashing around for French "surrender monkey" justification? Looks like someone’s getting tired ...

O.K. back on the topic this degenerated into:


Yes but I have a new tack I’m trying out. Satire.


The position that spending a $1 trillion blowing stuff and people up is a good idea, actually really does lend itself to satire.


I mean rreaalllly ROTFL. The contention when stated so baldly is patently nonsense.

By the way, I am not debating you, Brian, to make you see the error of your thoughts or convictions. It is clear that you will not be turned from them at all.

Like I stated before, I chose to debate you when I feel a counter to your assertions need to be voiced.

Dale, try this it’s clever and satirical and a lot more on topic.


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/12/174241/062


For the record, I am hoping to make you see sense. As regards the interesting anecdotes you furnish, well they are just anecdotes. I imagine, you could actually find people in the US who believe that stuff if you tried hard enough.


C’mon! The ranks of republicans have been swelled by people who believe in the creation story as written, the rapture, the literal return of Christ on the clouds as some kind of giant Tyrannarapture Rex and a staggering list of brain numbing nonsense at least as hair raising and alarming as the crap that Islamic fundis spout.


Though not all republicans, I hasten to add. But please.


You and vanishing band of Bush fellow travellers contend that we have to invade and occupy Iraq because the terrorists will kill us all if we do not. We must allow the president to incarcerate any global citizen (including Americans) without due process, employ torture as a state-sanctioned weapon, eavesdrop on our private conversations and even violate the law, because the terrorists are so evil and so dangerous that we cannot have any limits on the power of the president if we want him to protect us from the dangers in the world.


I’ve stopped trying to show the bigger picture of US co-operating with the rest of the world, because I realise that even from the perspective of your own national interest what is going on doesn’t make sense.


Do yourself a favour, wake up and smell the coffee. Spend some time on crooks and liars or the huffington post. Get a different perspective. That’s why I come here. I can recommend it, mostly I disagree but occasionaly I don’t. Sometimes I learn something new, and when I don’t, at least I’m seeing where the other side is coming from.


Yes there are crazy people who want to kill you. Only not you just someone, and the odds of it being you are vanishingly small.


That sounds cold, but likewise invading bombing and "that kind of thing" just gets civilians killed, and the odds of killing or capturing the small minority of bad guys is as vanishingly small as the odds of them killing you. It simply tee’s up a new generation of bitter and disgruntled people for the next round of terror.


There is a better way, and others have used it before you. Grow up.

Stop with with idiotic and truly bizarre attempt at equating Christian fundamentalists with Islamic fundamentalists.

The best you can get into today’s America with Christian fundamentalism is that you may not be able to buy alchohol or beer in a county or parish. You might not be able to dance. (However, I think the holdout city, Waco, Texas, finally gave in allowing dancing.) But you will not find the atrocities committed by the Islamists being committed by Christian fundamentalists in America.

You are the one that needs to grow up. Being European does not automatically equate to sophistication and most definately does not mean one is somehow an adult even if the age states one is.

You are making a fundamentally flawed argument in this respect and it demonstrates a total lacking of religious understanding, especially Christian.

Brian, in our debates on various threads on this site, you have continualy demonstrated that you are only willing to regurgitate myths, distortions, and out right lies regarding Christianity, the United States government, the War on Terror, our operations in Iraq, and on terrorism in general.

How many times do I have to refer to your own laws on terrorism till you finally admit it isn’t the United States President that will roust out of your house, but your own government that will and can do it.

The problem is that you refuse to acknowledge even this simple basic fact and continue to counter with lies about what the United States can and can’t do to you.

The spying that goes on in Europe on its own citizens dwarfs what goes on America, but you still cling to the Bush is evil claptrap that people on Kos and Huffington breath like air.

The United States is cooperating with the world, on our own terms, as does every other nation, even the ones inside your lovely disfunctional EU.

This continual clinging to the absurd is why I am not debating you for their is no reasoning with the deluded. I, rather, put counters out for others to purvue.

By the way, that wasn’t even good satire for it puts the Republicans in the position of Democrats. Moreover, the assumption of the satire doesn’t work because we already do simple background checks when citizens inside the US attempts to buy a handgun from a dealer. Also, to buy an fully automatic gun/selective fire gun such as an M-16 you have to jump through a bunch of hoops via the feds. The only discrepancy is for shotguns/rifles and private purchases. So, it appears we already are tracking a lot of folks in regards to guns already.

The Democrats, generally, that is, are for gun conrol, registration, and restriction.

In regards to searches, you don’t need probably cause for some types of warrentless searches like frisks, which can include a car or even a house.

Also, via the Patriot Act, the government has had the ability to ’sneak and peek’, that is search your house and seize property without notifying you of the action immediately. However, it could only be done under certain circumstances and the owner would have to be notified eventually. Anyway, it appears that of the power is truly not helping in regards to terrorism and is only helping in small percentage of criminal cases. This ability has been rarely used, which tells me it could be scrapped without much problem.

This continual clinging to the absurd is why I am not debating you for their is no reasoning with the deluded. I, rather, put counters out for others to purvue.


Thats a great public service .... but hang on, thats a bit socialist isn’t it?


What makes me most delusional do you think? Is it :


a) My rejection of killing innocent people to "free" them? Or are we killing them to protect us? I can never remember ... maybe it’s both!?


b) My observation that in the case of the IRA and the Spanish Basque seperatists that negotiation has worked without thrashing billions of dollars of infrastructure and killing tens of thousands of people?


c) My contention that the party currently governing the US is arguably the most corrupt ... well ... ever? That the US public and media seem belatedly to have begun to realise they’ve been sold a great reeking, dripping, steaming crock? Karl Rove just got indicted by the way. Hells Bells! How many is that now?


d) My contention that Bush is a radical power grabber, the like of none before as outlined in some detail by that hyper left wing communist think tank, the Cato Institute?


e)My contention that the EU, a body of 25 nation states co-operating and pooling sovereignity in a radical experiment in peaceful co-existence is inspiring, and could be a model for global co-existence?


f) My insistence that a few guys with delusions of grandeur, and few more willing to blow themselves up for God, does not represent an existential threat to civilisation, but that the richest, most heavily armed nation state on the planet, lashing out wildly and bellowing in pain, does?


I think (d), those CATO institute guys can’t be trusted.

The groups you just mentioned, the IRA and Basque seperatists are natonalist movements and do not equate to the Islamic terrorism except for some methodology.

Again, it is the assertions which demonstrate your delusion.

America did not lash out wildly or it pain.

If we did, then you would have a valid argument, but we didn’t. There is no proof to your that assetion. That is pure fantasy.

Regarding the current NSA ’spying’ ...

Company routinely disclose without citizen’s consent far more information to other companies and entites than what this NSA program was requesting.

Of course, for folks like Brian, this act just can’t be a valid law enforcement tool since ... well ... he is infected with the Bush Derangement Syndrome.

By the way, that wasn’t even good satire for it puts the Republicans in the position of Democrats.


You didn’t like it? I’m distraught:-)


The groups you just mentioned, the IRA and Basque seperatists are natonalist movements and do not equate to the Islamic terrorism except for some methodology


So they are what? Good terrorists? Decent maybe? Not underhandedly blowing themselves up and all that?


The decent thing to do is plant the bomb in a crowded pub and get the heck out of there. Staying and getting blown up alongside your victims? It’s in poor taste.


The best though, is dropping a bomb from 50,000 feet, or even better a cruise missile. That’s the truly decent thing to do. I mean sure innocent people get killed, but that is a sacrifice you are heroically willing to make. No matter what it costs (in non american lives) you and George are willing to step up to the plate. Inspiring, truly inspiring, freedumb on the march.

The Cato Institute isn’t totally against President Bush. Generally, they are, but they are, for the most part, a strict libertarian organization, of which President Bush is no libertarian of any kind.

So, it follows that they would be critical of him. Granted, some of the criticism stems from the policies which have been in place for decades.

Heck, the institute criticized the first Gulf War, and that even had the UN’s grand stamp of approval.

However, they did approve of his attempt at privatizing a portion of our Social Security system, the Ponzi scheme that has morphed into a retirement system.

America did not lash out wildly or it pain.


GWB noted that roughly 30,000 Iraqis were killed as a result of the invasion, and we both know that others peg it much higher than that.


So you are saying that this was part of the plan? Killing 30,000 people was his intention all along?


Jeez! Even I don’t actually buy that, I just think he’s a stubborn incompetent. Man, go easy on the guy!!!

Brain, I have never mentioned anything about good/bad terrorists. I haven’t even intimated about such a notion. You are the one who started that.

Jumping to exaggerrated conclusions to non-existant statements is so ... you.

And what’s with this bomber/cruise missle thing you keep bringing up?

How many soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq does it take for you to admit that we do more that bomb or shoot off missles?

The former President Clinton was better at that kind of military action (Heck, he didn’t even need or wanted the UN’s approval when he engaged in such a military campaign in Kosovo) and I’ll bet that he is the kind of US President you like, which is why I am baffled why you keep making this odd statement.

Brain, I have never mentioned anything about good/bad terrorists. I haven’t even intimated about such a notion. You are the one who started that.


Oh bugger. I’m sorry, I thought you were saying that there are grades of terrorist, lets call the opposing poles of our scale "different" and "differenter". That these radical Islamists represent a threat so dreadful, so existential, that you were willing to fight to the very last drop of Iraqi blood to stop them.


My mistake. That is so me ... leapin’ tuh conclusions. What with the word "equate" in there, I thought you were making some kind of qualification or value judgement of terrorist movements. Pshaw ... I’m crazy. Everyone knows that.

Hey, I’m with you. Those CATO guys are bonkers. No really, they are.

Last drop of Iraqi blood ...

OK, I suppose the blood of about 2000 American solders/sailors/marines/airmen in Iraq don’t count to you.

Further demonstration of BDS.

I never posited that were grades of terrorists, just that the rational behind groups like the IRA are vastly different than Al Qaeda.

OBL summed it rather well in his fatwa in 1996.

How many soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq does it take for you to admit that we do more that bomb or shoot off missiles?


Oh no, you misunderstand me! I agree with you here.


There’s artillery, white phosphorous, mortars, small arms fire, grenades. By golly the smorgasbord of choice that the US has furnished the Iraqis has to be seen to be believed.


Then when you factor in the healthy competition in the market place! There are IED’s, Russian RPG’s and more small arms fire than you could shake a stick with your helmet propped up over the top of your trench at.


Before it was just small arms fire (generally to the back of the head, not absolutely anywhere as is currently the exciting reality), and poison gas, maybe, if you were lucky. That was pretty rare though.


Yes, freedumb and the free market on the march have left the Iraqis positively spoiled for choice.


As regards how to die violently that is. Still can’t get the hang of supplying electricity though.

I never posited that were grades of terrorists, just that the rational behind groups like the IRA are vastly different than Al Qaeda.


So what is a dad blasted point? That one group can be combated with the existing police forces, but the other requires heavily armed marines and occasional carpet bombing? But they are all the same anyway? Huh?


Is this what passes for coherent discourse in your household?

No, Brian, I don’t misunderstand you. You state it extremely clear. I come across a lot of folks like you who think they are pulling a fast one and are too clever by half, but instead all that happens is that they look like fools.

Enough of this silliness.

You are coming from a simplistic view of the world. Oh, you say, how can that be. I am a world traveler. A European who lived in South Africa. I have such a better view of the world, good and bad, oppressed and oppressor, because of the experience, you say.

B.S. I say!

Stop the smugness. It is not cute and rather boorish.

We, America, act as slaveholders with the world being our slaves, you state in one of your posts.

You assert the EU is the example that the world should emulate. An Union who can’t even get its prime members to abide by the Union’s mandate is not what I use as an example, that’s for sure.

What you are doing and have learned in your life experiences is what is called moral equivalency whereby for you, no nation, nor no society is superior, better in any way, than the other, thusly, any action by every nation must be judged exactly in the same light. Except the reality is that the thuggish nations, like Iran, are nominally admonished for their sins while countries like the United States, who tries to uphold justice and human rights, are flogged 500 lashes for every little or big transgression.

And this applies to the actual topic of this thread, the NSA ’spying’. For you, just the mere mention of an injustice by the US is cause for you to lapse into your standard America is the cause for all the world’s ills.

Again, it is astounding that people like you, Brian, are actually rationalizing that war can not be used to combat terrorism, thusly making our War on Terror something to be rejected. No one is rejecting the law enforcement model, but it is not very helpful in combating the Islamists. You don’t need the full use of the military to fight something like the IRA, but you do need an aggressive and more militarized police force, and that includes human intelligence/agents/etc, in conjunction with more aggressive laws, which is what happened.

The War on Terror is so much more than what you rant about.

Oh boo hoo. We are the richest most heavily armed nation on the planet, we represent 3% of the global population, yet we insist on doing as we please and will be bound by no one. Sniff.


Yet everyone keeps on beating us up about it, insisting they have a say in case we blow up the planet, or touch off a war that will kill millions. Meanwhile, we are just trying to protect ourselves from the savage scourge of the neolithic islamic sheep herder. Hick.


It’s all so scary and we are right but no on will listen to us. Boo, bloody, hoo.


Jesus, you really are a whiny git. Honestly. Get a damn spine, face up to the risk we all share and stop your goverment killing innocent people.


Then get your government around a table with all the other governments, and sort this stuff out. This is just the same nonsense that every nation state has been through, now played out on a planetary scale. Lets skip the revolution (or the counter revolution) and cut straight to the negotiations.


If you can’t grasp that this is a must, find yourself a quite secluded spot without internet coverage, and hang out there for the next 20 to 30 years. I suspect it’s going to be boisterous and your not going to like the direction things are taking.


Bugger, now I’m annoyed and I have to clean the house. Women!

30,000 Iraqis were killed as a result of the invasionComment 42 by Brian Coughlan

Once again:

By whom? Islamic terrorists. But it’s GWB’s fault for sending in troops to stop the genocide and weapons proliferation.

Meanwhile, in the Sudan...no wait...it’s GWB’s fault for not sending in troops to stop the genocide and weapons proliferation.

Meanwhile, back in the United Soviet Socialist States of America:

In a major address outlining his strategy on the war against terrorism delivered to the National Endowment for Democracy October 6, President Bush said that 10 major al-Qaida plots were disrupted since September 11, 2001 http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2005&m=October&x=20051007130042adynned0.9633448&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

But it’s GWB’s fault for getting the telephone numbers of the unsuspecting would be mass murderers.

I’ve kept score:

Jimmy Conners 40

Bjorn Borg: Love

occasional carpet bombing

I don’t believe there’s been even one report of any of the terrorists bringing their pets with them when they’ve done their car bombings, Brian.

Game set match Texas Dude. (That’ll get his fingers trembling)

In 1974 a young man, who later became a friend of mine, was dating an exchange student from Malmo, Sweden. In 1980, that young man and I took our bicycles to Europe and visited her and her family in Malmo, a beautiful city. In 1985, I brought my bride to visit her family in Malmo. Today, I’m going to the 50th birthday party of my old bicycling buddy. I will find out whether our Swedish friends have been able to get out of the hell-hole that Malmo has become. But it’s GWB’s fault her gubmint won’t do anything to protect her from the Islamic thugs who now have the run of that city. I don’t know how that’s GWB’s fault, but it is.


But it’s GWB’s fault her gubmint won’t do anything to protect her from the Islamic thugs who now have the run of that city


Didn’t you get the memo?It’s official, everything is GWB’s fault:-)


That comment is total bilge by the way ... Malmo is not a hell hole run by Islamic thugs. Dear heaven fella, I live here!


Plus, that 30,000 was invasion casualties Guido. All yours. But don’t worry, none of them where Americans so thats ok. Thats the critical criteria eh? Fight em over there so any innocent bystanders "coping a packet" will be ... well, over there! Everybody wins!!


Ah the heroisim, the goodness, the overwhelming white hatted self sacrifice ... well sacrifice anyway, and thats the important part! Can’t appease the Lawd without a good sacrifice.


Freedom on the move coppertop, right out of the US. To be replaced by guaranteed, gubmint inspected FREEDUMB.


I’ll give you the Sudan, though, thats on the Chinese tab. They make your happy meals possible.

Ah the heroisim, the goodness, the overwhelming white hatted self sacrificeComment 56 by Brian Coughlan

Agreed.

Didn’t you get the memo?It’s official, everything is GWB’s fault:-)That comment is total bilge by the way Comment 56 by Brian Coughlan

Agreed.

It’s all so scary and we are right but no on will listen to us. Boo, bloody, hoo. Comment 52 by Brian Coughlan

Agreed

Yes, freedumb and the free market on the march have left the Iraqis positively spoiled for choice. Comment 49 by Brian Coughlan

Agreed.

Hey, I’m with you. Those CATO guys are bonkers. No really, they are.

Agreed.

My mistake. That is so me ... leapin’ tuh conclusions.I’m crazy. Everyone knows that.

Agreed.

Yes there are crazy people who want to kill you.Comment 35 by Brian Coughlan

Agreed.

Yes but I have a new tack I’m trying out. Satire. Comment 32 by Brian Coughlan

AGREED!!!!!

By the way, what’s a copper top? Is it like a top copper? or a cop topper? If so, clever....Bushwhacker.

copper top


Oh ... you won’t like this, but since I now have a pet name, I’ve decided you’ll need one too. Although, it’s not specific to one person, it’s more general.


Have you ever seen the movie, The Matrix? I can recommend it. It’s violent, but very thought provoking.


http://gist.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/plotsummary


Coppertop: A Matrix term for "Human being still plugged into the matrix". The name comes from the fact the humans in the pods could be turned into batteries with the electricity from the human body.


Read another excellent analysis of what is going on in the US.


If you have got this far, what, you may be asking yourself, can this have with the Intolerably Right?


Simply, they are an immunological disorder. They have turned the nation’s defenses against itself. It is now furiously attacking its own Self, able to recognize neither Self from non-Self, friend from foe, nor the homogeneous from the homeostatic. And they have done it--in the full ghastly bloom of the flower of pathological contradiction--by insisting on strict adherence to the particulars of Identity. By insisting on a one-to-one isomorphism with the details of a model of what an American is, and should believe. They seek to freeze the moving wave in place.


Their solution to a country wrestling with what its carrying capacity might be? Arrest the illegal immigrants! Deport them! Them! The non-White brown ones! Them! The ones singing the Anthem in non-English Spanish!
All together now, in English:


Hose ache and juicy
Pie Saddam’s surly glide
Wash soap roundly queen ale
Ads two why lies less cleaning


Drawing cleaner and sharper lines between Self and Nonself has become a cottage industry. You are with us or you’re against us. A real American wouldn’t question his government’s efforts to defend us against terrorism.


The purer air gets thinner and thinner the more it is cleansed of impurities. The water, clearer and clearer, soon bites the mouth of any not equally pure. Did you notice--it was not a coincidence, children--that the Aryan’s eyes went bluer and bluer, to ice, and his hair blonder until the posters showed albino white, Kali skull white. Only then, at that apotheosis--the Finally Secure Homeland Identity Event Horizon--is it truly possible to distinguish perfectly Us from Them. U.S. from Them.


Ooze bra straps in brass tars
Fruit a pair o lust vied
Babe Ruth drew the knife
Debtor fatwas deal dare


The more delicately the distinction is drawn, the more Others are snouted up who were once thought to be of Us. Until finally...all are the enemy! Each of us is a loathsome spider held by a thread, worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire!


A war against terrorism ends only when terrorism declares itself a failure, declares itself a voice that should no longer be heeded...or even heard. Terrorism must acknowledge to the Winner that it was borne not of frustrated rage, but of blind hatred of the Good, the One True Self. Winning that War is silent death to all not Us. To all not U.S.


Join us! We want you with us! In a blissful bland DisneyWorld democracy, in the glorious New Jerusalem, where seldom---no, make that never-- is heard a discouraging word! Where would be the sense? We are all perfectly alike!


End of chocolate’s rag lair
A bum’s purse string and hair
Gape roof rue denied
Dative lack quest tilled air


And thus the American Identity Deficiency Syndrome succeeds. In doing so, consumed with that which it was nourished by, it kills its host.


Hose hay dust dad’s tarps spank gold ban tour her jetway
Odor lanyard udder priest
End door hoe mother brief.


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/12/193243/496

Brian,

I truly regret any part I have played in sending you around the bend.

Ooops I only just noticed the strings of gibberish interspersed in what was otherwise a fairly interesting article.


I didn’t type that! I’ve been honing my arguments, for global governance on my shiny new blog : http://globalconfederacy.blogspot.com/
As an observer, singularly lacking in objectivity:-) tell me what you think.

Been following the bilge Coughlin regurgitates to absolute annoyance. Mainly Iraqi’s dying (of course by our hands. He forgets that most of the deaths are caused by fellow Iraqi’s (Baathist dead-enders)or foreign Jihadists. but then why let facts interfere.

Coughlin does not seem concerned about Islamist fundamentalists in good ’ol Europa and particularly in Sverge his adopted land I reckon. Well consider this............

The European media frequently censor themselves in matters relating to domestic Islamic radicalism and crimes committed by Muslims, and, with rare exceptions, their coverage of the war against terrorism makes the American mainstream media look balanced. When domestic problems related to Muslim immigrants do come to light, the typical European reaction, according to Bawer, is usually one of self-critique. In Malmö, Sweden, the country’s third-largest city, rapes, robberies, school-burnings, “honor” killings, and anti-Semitic agitation got so out of hand that large numbers of native Swedes reportedly moved out; the government blamed Malmö’s problems instead on Swedish racism, and chastised those who had wrongly conceived of integration in “two hierarchically ordered categories, a ‘we’ who shall integrate and a ‘they’ who shall be integrated.”

From....http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12105031_1

I guess Coughlin missed this or he does not care. Eventually he (not quite likely) or his children and especially his grandchild (or grandchildren, if his family wants to multiply)will no doubt be bowing to Mecca from the Caliphate of Scandanavia.

I would not laugh or brush this off, Coughlin. Think about it. Europeans are on the way to Dhimmitude. Many Europeans and Coughlin need the testicularity to recognize this cancer of multiculturism and diversity is doing to Western civilization and be prepared to fight back or die.

tell me what you think.Comment 62 by Brian Coughlan

...an observer, singularly lacking in objectivity:-)

You are obsessed with an unworkable, grossly overly simplistic world view. We--you, I, the world--cannot bring single individuals, such as bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and Ahmadinejad to justice when they surround themselves with million man armies, without war and the resultant wholesale slaughter of innocents....Unless....You may have noticed an effort afoot to turn Ahmadinejad’s people against him. If that succeeds, credit GWB.

Here is the thing about Dhimmitude. It’s crap. No really. There is no other way to describe this brain fart that you seem to be the victims of.


It’s the plot of invasion of the body snatchers, just with more facial hair.


We are all fine over here. Just fine. We have not been taken over .... at ... all.


(shaking head) You are desperate to convince me, that the country I actually live in is being taken over by Islamic fascist thugs. It’s ... well ... it’s wierd.


I guess you reckon if you scarify me enough, I’ll turn into the kind of gutless wonder willing to kill innocent foreign people half way around the world to ameliorate my irrational fear, and then claim I’m a fricking hero for doing it!!!


Ohhhh I live in Kansas, I live in Minnesota, I live in Oregon ... I’m so scared. They are coming to get us, we have to liberate them .... from their limbs.


Sorry. I’m not buying it:-( It’s pretty appalling behaviour for adults. Alleged educated adults no less.


For the record, you guys clocked up at least 30K on the bodycount all directly yours. Bush admitted that himself, although I don’t blame you for not believing him. Who does these days?

Pretty sad Coughlin. Prime example of a citizen in cloud cookooland.

Also your credibility dropped when you referred the DailyKos website; which is on a par with bovine excrement. Pretty sad,son.

Can’t help but regurgitate the Iraqi bodycount, heh? What is your attraction to this body count? How legit is it?

Oh. In case you forgot there is a war going on and sadly people die. Capice?

Here is the thing about Dhimmitude. It’s crapComment 64 by Brian Coughlan

Agreed.

BUT

There is a huge chunk of muzlims here in the good old U.S. of friggin’ A. and in good old scandahoovia, as well as those in eurabia, Africa and the middle east, who disagree. They want to kill or enslave us.

Are ya with us or against us...

Never mind. I know your answer.

P.S. I asked my friend last night about our Malmo friends. They haven’t gotten out yet either.

Saddam Hussein and Ahmadinejad to justice when they surround themselves with million man armies, without war and the resultant wholesale slaughter of innocents....


Swat teams, dropped in on rocket packs? Remote controlled drones? Remote controlled killer robots?


C’mon you are an American!! Show some Yankee ingenuity.


I’d be up for all of the above and more rather than war, if, it was sanctioned by a global authority with some semblance of a democratic system involved in putting it together.


See, I’m really a tough love conservative too, from the future. So that makes me a liberal today. But you know I’m right, let go of that nation state, hind brain, tribal loyalty and embrace the human race brother.


Then lets build a big phallic space elevator, go find some aliens, kill the men and ... you know the rest.

Can’t help but regurgitate the Iraqi bodycount, heh? What is your attraction to this body count? How legit is it?


Jesse ... you are how shall I put this ... not the sharpest knife in the drawer? Read the post again, s-l-o-w-l-y.


The term "body count" is not reserved for the exclusive use of the site you mention, it is a general term. You silly, silly man.

P.S. I asked my friend last night about our Malmo friends. They haven’t gotten out yet either.


I swear by Jesus (PBUH), I live a mere 3 hours away from Malmo, I’ll drive there and rescue them next weekend if you like?


I don’t disagree on the


There is a huge chunk of muzlims here in the good old U.S. of friggin’ A. and in good old scandahoovia, as well as those in eurabia, Africa and the middle east, who disagree. They want to kill or enslave us.


Maybe not a hugh chunk though, a few thousand in Sweden maybe. But enough to represent a threat? That would have me so freaked out that I’d be willing to kill anyone, let alone bomb civilians? Nah.


Serious offer re the rescue ... say the word, I do a mean Cavalry impression.

Swat teams, dropped in on rocket packs? Remote controlled drones? Remote controlled killer robots? I’d be up for all of the above and more rather than war...Comment 67 by Brian Coughlan

Oh, I get it!

And even though those would all be acts of war, we wouldn’t call it war, because they’d only kill the bad guys and no innocents would even have a hair on their chins harmed!

So why doesn’t Volvo do its part and invent a car that won’t blow up?

It’s all Volvo’s fault.

And even though those would all be acts of war, we wouldn’t call it war, because they’d only kill the bad guys and no innocents would even have a hair on their chins harmed!


Law enforcement without casualties, most especially in an international context will be practically impossible. I know that, and this isn’t the first time I’ve said it either. To you. Don’t be tiresome.


My beef is with the scale and the legitimacy of the undertaking. I’m up for dead or alive proclamations, I think we find them unavoidable in the short term. Just not on your terms alone, and imagine if some American was the subject of a dead or alive proclamation .... scary.

Don’t be tiresome.

Satire off?

Law enforcement without casualties, most especially in an international context will be practically impossible.

So no matter what we do in Iran, it will be O.K. as long as Jacques says so?

So no matter what we do in Iran, it will be O.K. as long as Jacques says so?


Actually Jacques is a corrupt asshole, we can agree on that:-)


No, not anything. In my imagined "new world order" war, as an instrument of the Security Council, would be almost completely off the table.


If the newly constituted, and vastly more democratic, security council felt that the Iranian Government were in breach of their obligations, then first they would be instructed as to what the SC had agreed.


If they failed to do that, the leadership would be summoned to appear.


If they failed to do that, global warrants would be issued for their arrest.


If they basically hid out in their home state, and became a credible threat, then the gloves would have to come off, and with SC approval we’d have to start killing some people. I say at that stage, tough titties. As long as we are forensically, and with undisputed SC approval targetting only the leadership in violation of SC rulings.


However, we are making a massive assumption here. Namely that a democratic SC would take your side, I find that fairly unlikely. I reckon a democratic SC would be ok with Iranian enrichment with careful oversight. It will be a scary new world, if you are a psycotic paranoid.

Just not on your terms alone

And there it is. Finally. The "global consensus" test that cost John Kerry the presidency. No act of war may be committed by the United States unless and until there is a global consensus that such an act of war is the only means available to achieve justice.

I’ve said it before. No global consensus will EVER occur when France, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, etc. ad infinitum, act in their own self interests first, those of their allies second and those of the rest of the world last. You said in your own blog the U.N. desperately needs to be replaced. Why? because they can’t agree on anything and because the crazies are in charge of the insane asylum.

critical point.


All of this has to do with war and the threat of war. We can’t be sanctioning extra judicial killings on the basis of minimum wage disagreements! Just wanted to make that clear.


Subsidiarity and all that.

No global consensus will EVER occur when France, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, etc. ad infinitum, act in their own self interests first, those of their allies second and those of the rest of the world last. You said in your own blog the U.N. desperately needs to be replaced.


Well yes, don’t forget to toss in the good ol’ USA in there too. That’s it exactly.


Countries have to transcend parochial self interest, and see the greater self interest such a step as I’ve outlined represents. Do it or die probably.


The good news is, we’ve done it all before, hundreds of times. The bad news is, we’ve never been so horribly be-weaponed. The terminally optimistic, might see that as a plus point though:-) Like so bad it’s good kinda?


Gotta sleep now, always a pleasure to spar with you Prosecutor. Sleep tight.

Another dead horse flogged enough? Or is it the same horse?

A pleasure as always, Bushwhacker.

Here’s good insight on the anti-American sentiments coming out of Europe.
The Fundamental Role of Anti-Americanism

Here’s good insight on the anti-American sentiments coming out of Europe. The Fundamental Role of Anti-Americanism


Interesting article, but I certainly disagree with much of the degree of the effects and forces he discusses.


For example, the idea that a coherent and organised EU elite is consistently on message beating up the US is laughable. Maybe in France. Co-ordination is the very thing the EU is worst at, largely because the bulk of sovereignty still sits with the individual states of the union. The US does a far better job of tarring the poor ol’ surrender monkeys.


The caricature he paints of EU sentiments as regards the US is also pretty over the top. He takes a scaffolding of truth as regards US crime and social injustice for example and exaggerates it out of all recognition. Very few people believe that picture. Yet decades of statistics bear out the basic principles. The US does have higher violent crime, it does have greater disparity of wealth, it does have more of it’s citizens living in poverty. These realities are indisputable, but no one believes the mad max scenario presented by Revel.


In my modest lifetime, I have never experienced and most especially, never shared, the scale, depth and intensity of Anti American feeling that we see today.


Five years ago, I was largely pro US, had recently spent a lovely weekend in New York, visited the Air and Space Museum in Washington and had explained on my return, how when my daughter was old enough we had to take her to see the place, it was fantastic.


I have always been pro the EU and a few years earlier had been very excited by my discovery of the federalist papers, and US constitutional documents online, and realised what a brilliant blue print they were for the direction the EU should take. I still think that.


I remember explaining to my Dad in 1990, shortly after the fall of the Berlin wall, that I finally got why capitalism worked better than command economies. How the process of millions of people making hundreds of daily, selfish personal decisions was vastly more efficient than some bureaucrat tucked away in an office sucking it out of this thumb. I still believe that too.


Now? Why now, I have to constantly keep reflecting on how anti American I’ve become. I regularly interrupt TV shows to note to my daughter how these are good Americans, and to note the positive values they espouse, that they are not bad people to counteract the stream of anger and frustration she hears when myself and my wife (or indeed anyone these days) talk about the most recent US outrage.


I’m not the bad guy and the EU doesn’t have the co-ordination to be the bad guy. Put it where it belongs, GWB, and I’m willing to expand that now to include the entire republican party, who despite some of the best checks and balances in the world, have been criminally asleep at the wheel for at least the last 3 years.

The problem, as I have stated many times before, is that you will never have the government you so desire.

There is a vast chasm of what is deemed a just government in the world and such a chasm can never be crossed by a one government alone. I for one will never allow my government to be subserviant to another world’s government, a government whereby the fundamental notion of what are human rights is not even agreed upon.

And, please, let’s not bring up the success of the EU because what the EU is currently doing is lowering the standards of entry so as to accomodate the states which are lacking. That is not what I would call progress.

What you want, Brian, is for the United States to be subserviant to the world and since we won’t ... well ... that makes you mad.

Every nation in this world works towards its own interests and the members of your much heralded EU are no different. They will abondan the EU if they felt it would better their position. For you to think otherwise is foolish and demonstrative of being naive.

Brian, America isn’t to blame for the world’s ills. The world is.

It is the irrational BDS which infects you, Brian.

I am so glad you can ameliorate you suffering by blaming the United States President, my President, but all you truly do is to gives us a glimpse into the inner workings of your very defective thinking and logic.

As I have stated before, I am not here to change your mind, that appears down right impossibly, but here to put forth counters to your insidious rantings and ravings when I feel that you have spewed a bit too much.

If any of you were wondering what Brian Coughlan looks like, there’s a picture of him. He’s the one on the leftHere

No, wait. that’s Hugo Chavez. Never mind.

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