Strengthening Constitutional Self-Government

No Left Turns

The great immigration question

Here is Mark Helprin on the immigration debate, and the coming together of political opposites. A left that disdains America and a business right both is "similar to the self-satisfaction of those who would have sold Lenin the rope with which he planned to hang them. This is the lobby, strange as it may seem, for illegal immigration." The importation of labor, he asserts, is the essence of the illegal immigration question.

Update: You had also better read Mark Steyn on why this is really NOT an illegal immigration issue at all.

Discussions - 38 Comments

Wow, and from the Claremont Institute...who woulda’ thunk it? Helprin writes a hard-hitting piece, but he should also concentrate on the political side of the equation. Dems want the Hispanic population to swell because 1) it can be easily coopted to vote Democrat, 2) it can be easily radicalized in the 2nd generation, and 3) America is too full of evil white people -- diversification is necessary for national salvation.

I find the libertarians/capitalists even more disgusting, however. Money, money, money...they’d sell their birthright for a buck.

G-d forbid that the grandchildren or great-grandchildren of immigrants (the "huddled masses") believe in hard work, opportunity, and the American dream instead of your "birthright." Get a grip, man.

I see yet another person who has a white-knuckle grip on myths but casts a blind eye on history and experience. People work hard around the world...what matters are resources and institutions. So, Mexico is full of lazy people? I guess you would say something like government and general corruption cause the whole of Latin America to languish, but who allows that corruption? Culture matters...get a grip, man, and embrace your birthright. Your ancestors worked their asses off to give it to you.

Dain, keep it up. Don’t let "Ohio Voter" and his insults bother you.

You’re absolutely right to say the open-borders people have a "white-knuckle grip on myths." That really nails it, as does Mark Steyn.

Thanks, David...it’s good to have support sometimes. Would that a few more of NLT’s "guardians of right and good" speak up...all I’ve been hearing is libertarian pieties and liberal sniping.

Yes, leftist dimwits and libertarians who agree with them half the time do seem to dominate many of these threads at NLT. I don’t get it. Doesn’t Ashland have conservative students?
Or are they too timid to speak up?

Someone will probably give me the old line that "conservatives have jobs and kids." Well and good, but it takes only a couple of minutes to participate in a discussion.

Kind of silly that a conservative blog has so many liberals, and non-conservatives. You’d think they could go off and talk among themselves. God knows I don’t want to hear from them.

I don’t mind hearing from them if they accept losing arguments gracefully. Haven’t met many of those, though :)

Dain,

I think everyone is just sick and tired of hearing your racist white Supremacist bull. But you and Dave keep patting each other on the back. Furthermore, I love how everyone else on this blog is either liberal or libertarian just because they don’t agree with you and the arguement you try to use to discredit Friedman and Hayek is priceless. These two hold a combined 2 nobel prizes and a medal of freedom yet they are wrong in your eyes because they are libertarian. Yea, good one there.

Dan, at least stick to a single name. As for being racist, as I’ve repeated noted, lefties and libertards accuse people of that to cow them into intellectual submission. It’s a old, tired, PC weapon, and it doesn’t work too well anymore. Overused by morons, you see.

And another thing...not one of you people has counters a single thing I’ve said with any kind of evidence or logic. Invoking Friedman and Hayek (blessed be their names, Amen) isn’t the same thing as thinking for yourself...I’m about to conclude you can’t. Doesn’t surprise me at all :)

That wasn’t me, but I second everything he/she said. All you do is appeal to emotion and make a bunch of racist comments about culture and destiny and the so-called European birthright. Then, if anyone criticizes you or challenges you to back up your statements with facts, you spew insults toward "libertarians" (as if conservatives could not also reject your bigotry) and pretend it is everyone else who relies on emotion. Then you call people names and tell them to "drop dead." Real strong arguments there. Well go back to the rock you were hiding under. No one wants to see another 100-comment string of you defending the confederacy or explaining why you have some god-given "right" to be a lazy academic while hard-working people are denied the ability to work because you hate them.

Wrong...here are just a few of the points I’ve made over the last couple of days:

1) Assimilation pressures are much weaker today than in yesteryear

2) There is no evidence that open borders improve economic performance

3) Guest worker programs in other parts of the world haven’t worked...they are essentially accelerated amnesty/immigration programs

4) Second generation immigrants are susceptible to radicalization (because they will experience subjective discrimination, but they won’t be desperate like their parents -- they will have the time, money, and education to march in the streets -- I’m sure you saw some of their Mexican flags lately). The Dems will exploit this, you betcha

5) Demographic change can lead to massive cultural shifts...I cited a few examples.

Now, you need to put up or shut up. Either debate the issues or crawl back into your hole. You are wasting my time with your childish accusations.

And why do you think I’m an academician, pray tell? Again, you’re shooting from the hip...no brains, will travel?

1) This is a "fact" that you invented and provided no proof for.

2) There is plenty of economic literature on this. Open borders would dramatically increase worldwide income. But again you made up "facts."

3) In all your rants, you mentioned one program in Germany with no supporting facts nor any explanation of the differences (economic, geo-political, etc.) that make this a bad comparison. There are examples from the USA that you could have used instead, but of course you did not because they don’t support your position.

4) Anyone can be subject to radicalization. You certainly haven’t shown any proof to back up your claims about second generation hispanics. Your Mexican flag analogy is weak. Millions of people marched and you saw a few dozen who reacted poorly. If anything, the vast majority of people NOT waiving Mexican flags disproves your broad generalization.

5) You have said nothing about demography or culture that cannot be summed up in one sentence: Dain doesn’t like Mexicans. Just a bunch of angry ranting.

Let’s not forget all the other "points" you have made:

Everyone who disagrees with Dain is a libertarian. Or a "neocon." (And don’t think that everyone reading this doesn’t know that’s a code word.) Or a creepface. Or a punk.

Libertarians are "mindless" and must be "purged."

Emotion is illegitimate except when Dain uses it. It’s okay for Dain because he is not "PC" like Joe Stalin.

Dain knows more about economics than nobel prize winning economists. Especially Milton Friedman. Anyone who disagrees with Dain should be playing in a sandbox.

Allowing poor people to work proves that Bush is part of the "the rich man’s party." (I’m still amazed by that logic.)

The "capitalists" are disgusting.

Mexico is full of lazy people. (Never mind they are trying to get long hours at low paying JOBS. If Dain says it, it must be true.)

The descendants of European immigrants have a "birthright" that we must hoard away from those lazy Mexicans.

Dain’s culture is awesome. We cannot let it be infected by the Mexicans.

Nice jab at retarded people in Comment 9, by the way. Glad to see that your hate is equal-opportunity.

This is the lamest set of "arguments" I have ever seen. You are worse than the nuts on the Daily Kos. I seriously thought about letting this stuff go, because I thought maybe you would shut up if no one argued with you anymore. But here you are still babbling. No one said anything for almost 8 hours, but you just kept patting yourself on the back and insulting people until someone set you straight. You’re addicted to the sound of your own voice.

"Racism" is the last refuge of the scoundrel. People who use this word should be presumed stupid and arrogant until they show themselves to be otherwise. Dain makes you uncomfortable because you’ve never heard his point of view expressed. Well, get used to it. And it’s not racist.

Either debate the issues or crawl back into your hole. O.K. I’ll give it a shot.

I find the libertarians/capitalists even more disgusting, however. Money, money, money...they’d sell their birthright for a buck. As I have mentioned, my wife is a Libertarian. I consider myself to be a fiscal libertarian, but what I mean by that is that what can be privatized, should be privatized. Neither do I believe, nor does my wife, nor do any of the tiny handful of Libertarians I know, believe in open borders. I do believe in supply and demand, but I also recognize that by ever increasing the supply of cheap labor, there is a corresponding ever increasing demand on health care, welfare and...now...social security, not to mention the increased costs in education of the children of immigrants and the prosecution and incarceration of criminals (my line of work as you may know...now, Dain tell us your line of work). I heard on the radio program of Larry Elder, a self described "republitarian" that illegal aliens TAKE, on average, $89,000 more, over the course of their lives, than they contribute to the economy. He also said that LEGAL aliens take, on average $31,000 more than they contribute. If there is a Libertarian, or anyone else, out there who thinks that’s good, I’d like to hear from you. Why do you think that’s good?

1) Assimilation pressures are much weaker today than in yesteryear As things are, I agree. As things will be when the borders are controlled...I think...we’ll start to see more assimilation. That’s a turkey shoot. Who knows?

2) There is no evidence that open borders improve economic performance Quite the contrary. Open borders have been a tremendous drain on the economy, as suggested above.

3) Guest worker programs in other parts of the world haven’t worked...they are essentially accelerated amnesty/immigration programs I don’t know about that. But I have never heard a response to the question I have asked several times on other threads here: How many more "guest workers" do we need than the 12 million we already have?

4) Second generation immigrants are susceptible to radicalization... I don’t know about that one. Seems to me 2nd generation immigrants are no more and no less susceptible to radicalization than...say...rich white New School brats.

My entire problem with the border is that anyone can get through, be they Mexican, Chinese, Saudi Arabian, a MS-13 gang member, or a member of Al Qaeda.

Its long enough of negotiations. Americans really need to do something now. They must start with strict immigartion policies to curb terrorism. Go with it!!!!!!!!!

Second generation immigrants are susceptible to radicalization... I don’t know about that one. Seems to me 2nd generation immigrants are no more and no less susceptible to radicalization than...say...rich white New School brats.

The pattern is being observed in Europe among Muslims (very end of the commentary), and I’ve seen others comment on the "red diaper babies" in the 1930s and 40’s. Unlike so many people on this blog, I don’t just make stuff up.

Neither do I believe, nor does my wife, nor do any of the tiny handful of Libertarians I know, believe in open borders

Well, UG, you need to expand your circle of Libertard friends...here’s an excerpt from the National LP’s platform...read it and weep.

The Issue: We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new "Berlin Wall" which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government’s policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.

Hey, there’s more!

We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.

We call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally.

Do I need to start citing the Wall Street Journal? Libertarians are nuts on this issue.

ONCE AGAIN. WHO EXACTLY IS LIBERTARIAN THAT IS ARGUEING WITH YOU. NO ONE ON THIS THREAD HAS ONCE SAID THEY WANTED TO GET RID OF BORDER PATROL. THE ONLY THING ANYONE HAS DONE IS POINT TO ECONOMIC WORK DONE BY SOMEONE WHO ALSO HAPPENS TO BE LIBERTARIAN.

No one has said anything about amnesty or getting rid of the INS. WHY?

Because I am not a libertarian. Man you are taking a page out of the Daily Kos handbook. If you can beat them. Call them something they are not and then try to discredit the thing they are not and there by you have diverted everyone’s attention from the truth and someone established that in fact the person you arguing with is nuts.

What is John Moser suggesting? Let’s be clear...moreover, his buddy Lawson clearly thinks erecting any type of enclosure is a form of imprisonment. And, importantly, resistance to the idea of strict regulation of the border is tantamount to an open-border policy.

And the LP clearly believes in open borders. So what’s your beef...if you don’t share these libertarian beliefs, tell me what you DO believe in.

And, BTW, capitalizing everything doesn’t impress me...except perhaps to confirm my estimation of your IQ.

ohhh. This from a man who makes fun of Mentally retarded on every thread.

I believe in a guest worker that equates Labor demand with labor supply. This is the only way to stop illegal immigration.

To steal a quote from Bicerton, Maria. "Prospects for a Bilateral Immigration Agreement with Mexico: Lessons From the Bracero Program. Texas Law Review

The Bracero program lasted from 1942 up until 1964 when it was finally repealed. During the lifetime of the program, more than 4.6 million “temporary workers” gained access to the United States for the sole purpose of employment. Furthermore, it is also important to note that in this time frame the real wage rate increased in all sectors of the economy. However, not only did the wage rate increase, but the average rate of unemployment also fell by almost a half percent. Finally, this was a time period that gave way to record-lows in illegal immigration. It was not until 1965 after this law was repealed that illegal immigration began to rise.

But hey, what do I know. According to Dain I am the irrational one.

In 1942, California created the "Bracero Program," a Mexican labor program that allowed California agricultural employers to temporarily contract with approximately two million Mexican nationals for their labor in the fields. The agricultural industry benefited from this cheap labor until 1964, long after World War I ended. In spite of the Bracero Program, between 1939 and 1954, the INS deported three million undocumented and documented Mexican immigrants and U.S. citizens through an anti-Mexican campaign known as "Operation Wetback."

Are you suggesting that the Bracero Program didn’t lead to permanent immigration? Puleeze!

BTW, Lincoln, googling "maria bicerton" produces zilch. This isn’t citation...it’s incompetence.

Its in the Texas Law Review. Maybe you jump on Academic Search Premier.

But I do like how you comment on it first then try to find it. Here ya go. Took me exactly 7.5 seconds.
Texas Law Review

No if you tried to find this first and attempted to read it first (of course you won’t cause that is not what this is about to you.) you would have found out that Maria talks extensively about the programs shortcommings and (lo and behold since its in a LAW Review) recommends ways to overcome those shortcommings. If you had read this YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS.

I would have read this student’s NOTE had you spelled her name CORRECTLY. In the meantime, read this from two scholars who know what the $%@# they are talking about. You’ll also note that the outlet is prestigious, and not none for "racist" positions.

Philip L. Martin & Michael S. Teitelbaum. 2001. "The Mirage of Mexican Guest Workers." Foreign Affairs (Dec): 117-131.

As for "fixing it," I don’t want to hear coulda, shoulda, woulda. That’s what we heard from Simpson-Mazzoli advocates back in the 1980s. It’s BS.

Dain,

In response to #9:

In an earlier statement, you indictated that Hispanics can be easily coopted to vote Democratic. Blanket statements regarding a race, especially statements insinuating that they are easily led around by the nose, are in fact racist. It is not an "old, tired, PC weapon" to call a racist statement racist.

I also find it charming that you claim that a liberal calling a conservative racist is an attempt to cow them into intellectual submission, but you apparently have no problem with conservatives saying that the left "distains America". What a cowardly position to take!

Robert, the Left does disdain America...not even worth arguing about, I’m afraid. "A thousand Mogadishus," or "anyone who attacks the Pentagon has my vote," etc...and these comments were NOT harshly condemned by Leftists.

And I’m sorry, Robert, but drawing generalities DOES NOT make you a racist. Black folks are led around by the nose...why would Hispanics be any different? The fact that they ALREADY vote Democrat says a lot.

And bite me, mister. You don’t know me, so where do you get off calling my positions "cowardly?"

Oh, way to go, Dain. I wonder if those are some examples of the comments that John Moser would consider to be "intelligent and insightful."

Yea, I know, Forrester. I’m supposed to allow people to accuse me of racism, cowardice, etc., etc. without comment or response. Hey, you can bite me, too!

Dain, in comment 12 you stated that you are an "academician." In what capacity are you an academician, exactly? Do you teach? If so, what subject? Before you launch into your standard rant about not revealing personal info., remember, it was you who put the information out there that you are an academic, not anyone else. I’m not asking you for your name, address, social security # or anything like that. I’m not even asking what school you teach at. Just let the good readers of NLT know what field (or fields) you are qualified in as an academic - not to say that you aren’t expertly knowledgeable in a multitude of fields beyond your profession, of course.

No, I didn’t say that...Dan accused me of being one. And I asked him why he thought that in #12. Pretty funny.

Oh, right - okay. That is weird, why on Earth WOULD Dan think that you’re an academic?

I have no idea.

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