Strengthening Constitutional Self-Government

No Left Turns

They’re Assimilating

Among the enemies of American Kultur is Alvaro Vargas Llosa, who recites a few inconvenient facts:

The states with the largest Hispanic population are the ones with the lowest unemployment rates.

A third of Hispanic Americans have average household incomes over $50,000, and the rate of growth in purchasing power among Hispanic Americans over the past ten years is triple the national average.

Eighty-three percent of Hispanic Americans speak English, and 60 percent of them were born in the United States.

Hispanic Americans are learning English faster than did Italian and Polish immigrants a century ago, and 30 percent of Hispanic Americans are marrying non-Latinos.

Discussions - 48 Comments

That’s great!

But these are Hispanic Americans.

What are the illegals doing?

Yea, John, this must be the truth...some outfit called Geoscape International says so, and they are firmly backed up by some Harvard outfit that’s rah-rah about immigration. And all this reported by a Libertard "think" tank.

You people amaze me.

backed up by some Harvard outfit that’s rah-rah about immigration. And all this reported by a Libertard "think" tank.

Does everyone else see my point. Dain, just because you don’t want it to be true doesn’t make any less true. BTW, nice crack on mentally retarded people, AGAIN. Just has Dan pointed out before, you are truly an equal oppurtunity hater.

Oh, gosh, have I been politically incorrect again? Golly gee wish, I sure am sorry about that.

You folks can accuse me of anything you like so long as you rationally address my arguments. So far all I’ve seen is a lame attempt at moral extermination...laughable and sad given this blog’s nominal purpose. Sometimes I think it should be renamed "the DU Lite."

There is no rational way to address racism. Sorry bud. But have linked in several other to 2 nobel prize winners, a medal of freedom winner, several academics who have given speeches worldwide and a worldbank study that cites Several Hundred economists and politicial scientists. What do they all have in common. They all disagree with you.

But hey, what do I know, apparently suppling articles and information is not rational.

Some outfit called Geoscape International says so, and they are firmly backed up by some Harvard outfit that’s rah-rah about immigration. And all this reported by a Libertard "think" tank.

Bloody maddening isn’t it? See now, this is what I feel like posting here 90% of the time. No matter how rational, obvious or overwhelming the data, its simply rejected.

I for one am relieved to see sanity prevailing on at least this subject.

Now hold that moment of empathy and use the split second you have to honestly assess the evidence for global warming being caused by humans.

Perhaps Dain will have a served a higher purpose after all:-)

Don’t post a whole bunch of CC rebuttals here please, that’s just me facilitating the hijacking of the thread and I don’t want to do that. Just an example, thats all.

How about supplying some of these links to these demigods you cite, Lincoln? Moreover, having a Ph.D. doesn’t give you a lock on the Noam Chomsky right in his reading of American society? I don’t let people driven by FAITH do my thinking for me...else I could throw a bunch of Nobel Prizewinners at you.

I’m about to conclude that you have nothing to say, other than that I’m a baaadddd person. You know, I would think that the similarity between your tactics and those of the luney left would make you just a tad bit uncomfortable.

How about supplying some of these links to these demigods you cite, Lincoln? Are you serious. I have cited the past two days in several threads. More proof that you just don’t care to educate yourself on the subject. You don’t even bother to remember the several links I have supplied.

Yea, John, this must be the truth...some outfit called Geoscape International says so, and they are firmly backed up by some Harvard outfit that’s rah-rah about immigration. And all this reported by a Libertard "think" tank.

Sheesh. Get a cup of coffee before posting.

The guy linked a story for discussion. Geoscape International is just one of the sources noted. Others include Pew, HispanTelligence (a research division of Hispanic Business magazine), and Harvard.

As far as Geoscape International, going to their site shows a fairly respectable enterprise:

Established in 1994 and based in Miami, Florida and with offices throughout the U.S. and international offices in Brazil, Mexico and Europe (Netherlands), Geoscape® International, Inc. provides market intelligence through information, software and consulting services.

Among the hundreds of well-recognized clients are AARP, Coca Cola, Citigroup, Proctor & Gamble, Blockbuster Entertainment, Time Warner Cable, Western Union, Publix Supermarkets, Nike, Nortel Networks, NCR, Verizon Communications, The MONY Group, Starbucks, Taco Bell and many others in the US and various commercial and government institutions internationally.

Seems like the writer took time to find multiple sources and the sources have a fair degree of credibility. If you disagree with the opinion, you can freely express yourself and source your work. Or you can just sit back and accuse folks of narrowly accepting work that fits their worldview. The irony, I’m sure, won’t be lost on you.

I would hope the immigrant kids are learning English faster than our ancesters did. Our ancesters didn’t have special English classes taught in school, like the immigrants now do.My aunt could only speak Danish when she started school because that is all that was spoken at home. Her parents could speak English but they only used it in public, but when they realized what they had done, they started speaking English at home. There is no reason why all immigrants can’t learn to speak English, if they want to, now. Most communities have English classes for adults too.

Not only is the homogenisation described in the article happening in the US, it’s also happening in the rest of the World.

Here in Sweden, English is compulsory from the age of 9 onwards, and you’d be hard pressed to fund a Swede under the age of 50 that didn’t speak at least passable English.

TV is not dubbed, so 60% of TV is in the original English/American.

Although the Nordic countries are on the leading edge, most EU countries are on the same track. With the possible exception of the French:-/

Akward as ever eh?

I dismissed John’s sources because they deserve to be dismissed. Using big aggregate statistics on lawful immigrants doesn’t really answer the policy question at hand. Moreover, Mexicans, who are the policy-relevant group here, look far less rosy than John’s "report," which lumps groups like Cubans and other hispanic groups. I’m much more inclined to believe sources like this.

Can you make a case for assimilation? Sure, if you blend longtime Hispanic residents with the WAVE of illegal newcomers, mix well, and hold your nose while you shove it into the faces of skeptics. Smart people know better.

Hawk: glad to you see you treat the word of Peruvian novelist Antonio Vargas Llosa with the respect it deserves. I’m sure you’ve read his definitive take-down in the New Republic of Che Gueverra, (within last six months--search the TNR site) in which he reveals the man’s sickening ideological murders and perhaps even more sickening tyrannical personality. If you haven’t, it’s worth going into a library to make a few copies. That way, the next time you meet some Che-clad youngster, you can pull out a copy and set them straight about why Che was and is such a horrible example for any true, decent, and yes, America-loving, left. Yes, Dain might do more homework, but I detect more than a little undeserved superiority in your study-quoting harrumphs against him. The facts Llosa uses are not the whole story, nor do they definitively resolve what we should do. Have you read Steyn’s latest, which touches on the issues of remittances and Mecha-ista politics? Heather McDonald last year on the growth of Mexican gang culture? Carol Swain on the way illegal immigration helps white nationalists recruit? I know I try to keep up what the liks of Tamar Jacoby and Alejandro Portes say. Serious people disagree on which facts are the most relevant to our debates here. Finally, accusing Dain of racism and insensitivity to the retarded is simply vicious. I am for a friggin’ big-ass fence, by the way. I am for more internal enforcement, which yes, means a lot more deportations and employer fines. Oh, and sometimes I read Michelle Malkin and Little Green Footballs. So, can you see into my soul and know if I’m racist? You should apologize to Dain and next time try to engage in actual argument with him.

Yeah Carl, because Dain has engaged in such rational argument himself. Have you even read his comments? Here they are again:

Everyone who disagrees with Dain is a libertarian. And a creepface. And a punk. And retarded.

Libertarians are "mindless" and must be "purged."

Emotion is illegitimate except when Dain uses it. It’s okay for Dain because he is not "PC" like Joe Stalin.

Dain knows more about economics than nobel prize winning economists. Ignore the wide consensus. Anyone who disagrees with Dain should be playing in a sandbox.

Allowing poor people to work proves that Bush is a tool of "the rich."

The "capitalists" are disgusting.

Mexico is "full of lazy people." (Never mind they are trying to get long hours at low paying JOBS.)

The descendants of Europeans have a "birthright" that must be protected from the Mexicans.

Dain’s kulture is kool. We must defend it from the Mexicans.

This is not about serious people disagreeing about facts. It is about an attention-starved jerk who hates hispanics and mindless, creepface, punk, neocon, libertarian retards.

Thanks, Carl. It’s nice (but unusual) for someone to stick up for me.

And I’m tired of people accusing me of being nasty. As I’ve said continually, my nastiness is a reflex...I typically don’t initiate it. For instance, I took a very long break from NLT because of crazy commentary, but when I returned, after just two or three very reasonable comments, I was confronted with this. If people would like to see more of my sweeter side, they might start by being polite and engaging my arguments instead of trying to morally exterminate me.

I respect John, but I don’t agree with him here. The other side of this is pretty lucidly presented in Victor Davis Hanson’s Mexifornia... A State in Becoming. When a nation imports unassimilated millions it imports their social and political problems.

My concern is that the above study and others like it are flawed and extremely optimistic. I cannot imagine that they are not really studying illegals. An anecdote: My Apartment complex is filled with Latin Americans, many of whom I imagine are illegals. The numbers nationwide would support such a supposition. They are nice guys - polite, seem to be working long hours, quiet - good apartment neighbours. However, none that I have met so far can return more than a greeting in English. A few weeks ago a few of these guys had a rare dispute, and one smashed out all the other guy’s car windows. That is a pretty hefty property crime. When the police showed up the victim would not report it. If my downstairs neighbour is not turning in a felony property crime that cost him several hundred dollars, he ain’t answering surveys, and he isn’t being closely examined by social scientists.

This is not limited to Latin Americans. I have a good friend who is a Parole Officer in a major Ohio county. This county has enclaves of Somalians in the tens of thousands. The police in this county have NO ONE who speaks Somalian. The Somali locals who have English, a minority, are not talking. So when crimes are committed in this immigrant community, the police come clean up. Arrests are rare, prosecutions more so. This is not safe for the community at large, it isn’t safe for the Somalis.

My larger point is not that window smashing is peculiarly Mexican - obviously it isn’t. It is that the huge number of illegals here is a law enforcement and a public order problem, and all the cheap labor in the world cannot make this social problem disappear. The study cited here strikes me as whistling in the dark. I obviously cannot fund a study of my own, so I cannot refute this one, but I am not buying it.

I’m really not concerned whether the statistics are true or not. I admire the Hispanic community for it’s values and work ethic (and the fact that once this immigration thing finally gets settled they’ll be a huge GOP voting block), however, as great as low unemployment and allegedly quick assimilation may be it is still ILLEGAL. Lincoln (as in Abraham) has a lot to say on obeying the law whether you agree with it or not, and I think his argument is timeless.

This is the DU Lite?

I guess National Review is calling for the restoration of the Roman Empire, then.

Well, alrighty then.

Mexico is "full of lazy people." (Never mind they are trying to get long hours at low paying JOBS.)

A slanderer and now a took me out of context.

And yes, when you call me a bigot I will respond with language like "creepface" -- pretty mild rebuke, all things considered.

As for the rest of your "list," you’ve taken the spice of my posts but left the main course. But...if you want to act like a "retard" then by all means go ahead. I still haven’t read one substantive comment from you, punk.

I am generally in agreement with comment #15, which emphasizes that, whatever the utility of allowing in illegal immigrants, this is an issue of upholding the law. Otherwise, if Mexicans (or other peoples) are of that much benefit and are that easy to assimilate, let’s just open our borders and say "c’mon in!"

A slanderer and now a took me out of context.

Actually, that would be libeler.

Carry on.

Mark...blogging strikes me more as a conversation. I’ll stick by the original word.

Just yanking you chain, bud.

Nothing personal.

No offense taken. Compared to being equated with the Imperial Wizard of the KKK, having my English corrected is positively welcomed!

Mr. or Prof. Moser’s reference to American "Kultur" sounds like an attempt to smear immigration restrictionists at Nazis.

In God’s name, why?

If you think you have a culture that would not be improved by admixture of whatever external element is under discussion, he thinks that you ARE a Nazi. Pretty simple.

I agree with WM’s comment #17. Illegal immigrants cannot contact police officers because they are afraid of being deported. I am pretty sure I live in the same county as WM, although in a different portion of it. A major illegal immigrant apartment complex was burned to the ground about 6 months ago, or whenever, and no one said anything. Everyone was afraid of being deported. In another apartment complex about 1.5 miles from me, a Salvadoran murdered his girlfriend/wife and thier child. It was pretty obvious he had been abusing them both for a while, but she never sought help due to fear of being deported. I walk my dog in a local park every night, and there are always lots of hispanics playing soccer and baseball. They are very nice, but they know almost no English, or they choose not to speak it (which does go on in construction sites when they wish to avoid work or talk bad about their supervisors).

Some thoughts:

Confession time -- I’m one of those Libertards incapable of thought.

I disagree with open borders. Go figure.

This place has gotten nasty of late.

Mr. or Prof. Moser’s reference to American "Kultur" sounds like an attempt to smear immigration restrictionists at Nazis. In God’s name, why?

So anything in German must involve Nazism? What kind of ethnic slur is that?

Well, John, are you speaking tongue-in-cheek here? If you are serious, I would ask you what value-added you gained by selecting the Deutsch version of a perfectly good English word...culture? Verstehen Sie?

Ich verstehe. What I’m referring to is more Herder than Hitler, although the latter certainly bought into it. It’s the notion that Kultur was tied to Blut und Boden (blood and soil), so that no non-German could ever become a German. The vision of culture I’m hearing thrown around here sounds eerily similar. The United States has always prided itself on rejecting that view--one is an American who believes in natural rights. Their culinary, religious, and sartorial preferences are irrelevant. This was what Schramm’s father was talking about when he told his son that they were "born American, but in the wrong place."

A pretty idea, but America was built on more than a political abstraction. Our nation (i.e., our people) consists of folkways, habits, religious and cultural beliefs (and a good deal more). That’s why we insisted that people assimilate, and that’s why our "chunky stew" has worked up until now...English and a distinctively Western view of the world has been the thickener. It’s more than just "liberty" and "civil rights." It’s cultural discipline that makes any society work.

I’m afraid Libertarians have a grasp on the Englightenment that’s a bit to tight.

I understand why Peter & Co. would want NLT to be uncensored, but I long for an editor and a referee.

News flash!!! Look what I found on another thread!!!!

Hell, I might even vote for GOP candidates in 2006 -- but only if I start getting represented. Comment 1 by dain

Can We Kiss and Make Up? Post by Julie Ponzi

All hope lies in the House, Dain and the entire House is up for election this fall. This is NO time to sit one out in protest.

Of the thirty-five posts on here the only one with more light than heat is 17. How odd that everyone would ignore it.

"The United States has always prided itself on rejecting that view--one is an American who believes in natural rights."

So anyone who believes in natural rights is, by that very belief, an American?

John is of the opinion that America is special, that what binds us is a set of ideas, and that we have overcome the gravity of the family, clan, tribe, race and nation. It’s a common opinion among idealists on the Right, particularly the radical individualists one finds among the Libertarians.

Unfortunately, it’s one of those feel-good myths that is only partially true. Ideas have been and continue to be important to Americans, and freedom, justice, and "the American Way" do animate much of our national spirit, but we are fooling ourselves if we think we are exempt from Burke’s "little platoons." Indeed, these ideas that John finds so important are part and parcel of a cultural hegemony, an Anglo-Saxon, Scots,Judeo-Christian that is now slipping (indeed, that’s what the ’culture war’ is all about). No society, EVER, has functioned solely as a corporate of like-minded people. The in-group based on ascription is part of our biology, and we ignore this to our peril.

Of course, I realize that both Liberals and Libertarians view these "little platoons" as retrograde, a source of prejudice and barbarity, something to be overcome. And they are partially correct. Nonetheless, this IS the way people operate, and the reason reality defeats idealism (whether liberal, traditional or radical) is that people are not going to emerge from the modern crysalis as social butterflies.

Is there hope? Sure, but conservatives know it has to be gradual, and there have to be ground rules to manage diverse groups of people. It isn’t evil, or Naziesque, to want our own cultural rules to apply to incoming migrants, nor is it racist to want to slow the flood of people far different from our majorities. It’s a bit of defensive ethnocentrism, and that’s a sensible stance to take (even if it offends people who are utterly clueless about the human situation).

Dain makes basic sense to me. I would question, w/o knowing if this is his exact belief, 1) whether it is desirable or realistic for Americans to demand assimilation of the newly-arrived in the manner they did pre-WWII. Contemporary assimilation will be subtle, gradual, and will often occur without the "assimilator" actively planning to do so. This is because our contemporary multicuturalists aren’t simply insane--we can and should endorse (although not expect) Mexican-American celebration of their cultural "Mexicaness." True, there are higher priority cultural things to do, such as getting a genuine liberal education (count me against TV-culture assimilation) but let individuals figure this out naturally. Americans of course have to insist upon A) robust conceptions of citizenship, B) English for the public sphere, C) an acceptance of a basic American Creed centering around natural rights, and D) reasonably patriotic public history education. I would also question 2)whether it does any good to talk about Anglo-American culture being assimilated in a conscious way--it’s simply a political and personal non-starter,("You want me to be more Anglo-like?") even though unconsciously, there is a whole host of cultural practices (some of them not-so-good) we all tend to adopt that can be historically traced to American Southern ways, New England Puritan ways, etc., and to England itself. As I always say, read your Tocqueville. But these are going to be picked up by people automatically, so long as the rate of immigration is not out of control. So Dain, phrases like "cultural discipline" do not help. As I think you recognize, the distant chords of England in our souls pale against the importance of the fact that our culture was and should remain partially Christian, and that it was and should remain partially Lockean/"Enlightened."

What Moser’s view (in its briefly expounded form, at least) cannot address is the fact that 1) we have every right to judge cultures coming into our nation in terms of how well they suit our overall mix and whether they foster mores compatible with republican ones. Thomas West is very good on this issue in his Defending the Founders book. There is a powerful case to be made, for example, for shutting off Muslim immigration given what we now know regarding the nature of Islamism. I don’t think I would vote for such a measure given our present circumstances, but I would not dismiss it as ethno-centric. Nor 2) can Moser really address the ugly fact that when whites become the minority, as they increasingly are and will be in certain sections of the nation, the temptation to white nationalism can become powerful. Again, I recommend consideration of Carol Swain’s work. The key factor will not be whites’ minority status per se, but their perception of whether immigration is under control and whether politics is not dominated by ethnic interest-group considerations. Recitations of the Declaration can only do so much.

Some anecdotal evidence...
My hometown and high school were (and are) pretty balanced between so-called whites and so-called hispanics. Of my lifelong friends, one is Mexican (U.S. Citizen) and married a half-Mexican, one is half-Mexican and half Creole and married a white, one is half-Italian and married a full Mexican (legal, born in Mexico). I was the only one in my circle of friends not to produce a so-called mixed race child. And when we get together, we don’t talk about this stuff--not because it is taboo but because it is not really an issue. I am the outsider because I married a German/German-Swiss Buckeye.

Consider how frequently you are now required to press a button in order to get services by phone in English. We have become, lightning fast, and without any kind of public debate or decision, a functionally bilingual nation. This is a disaster for us, culturally, because it promotes biculturalism and a permanently disunited states.

I lived in a bilingual nation, Canada, for many years. There is nothing good about it; it swallows vast resources in squabbling and posturing and weakens the sense of nationhood. America is and always has been a nation attempting to bring the unum e pluribus. It has always been difficult and complicated. We may just be on the verge of the breaking point. James Burham’s book title is often on my mind these days: Liberalism, The Ideology of Western Suicide.

Hey, Stephen, that’s nice, but it is anecdotal. Even given broad definitions and counting marriages between bi-racial people, less that 5% of American marriages can be considered interracial (that’s according to the Census Bureau). I’m not endorsing this’s just true, and it reinforces the point that in-grouping by race and other ascribed statuses has been (and will likely remain) a dominate form of social organization. It is something important to remember in discussions of immigration...white ethnics "melted" to a great extent, but there’s no guarantee that will happen to other groups with greater racial/religious/linguistic differences.

"Dain makes sense to me" refers to #38. Being a native Californian, where there is no way the rate is near 5%, I am quite sure that the anecdotal evidence Stephen mentions carries greater weight for our future than the present statistics. Nor, beyond the factors of being next-door, 1848, and illegality, do I think Mexicans fall into the category of "more difficult to assimilate" that concerns Dain.

whether it is desirable or realistic for Americans to demand assimilation of the newly-arrived in the manner they did pre-WWII

In what way was assimilation "demanded" back then? My great-grandparents, who immigrated here in the first decade of the 20th century, went to their graves never knowing more than a smattering of English, living in neighborhoods in which German was the most commonly spoken language, belonging to German civic organizations, and attending a Catholic church in which German was spoken (I remember going there as a child and noticing that the Stations of the Cross were all in German). Their kids were somewhat assimilated--they were bilingual--but my parents (who grew up in the 1950s) were the first generation to speak English exclusively.

Carl, the intermarriage rate in California is from 2 to 3 times higher than the national rate, but that’s still only about 12-15%...which tells you how rare it is in other places around the country.

And, of course, if I started discussing other nations the pattern would be quite is natural for humans to organize themselves along commonalities like race, religion, language, and so on. "Hey, we’re all Americans, right?" will take you only so far...increasingly, it takes a 9/11 to create a strong sense of national unity, and that only temporarily. And before anyone out there starts pointing to polling data about how much people identify with America, I’d simply say that actions speak louder than words.

Some support for my anecdotal evidence:

Check the trends.

Well, I guess it’s possible that 22% of people could say they have a relative in a mixed-race marriage, although it doesn’t seem very likely given that 95% of marriages are mono-racial -- perhaps people willing to interracially marry come from BIG families. Or...perhaps it’s just survey data that’s inaccurate. As I said, I’ll pay attention to what people do, not what they say.

I’m skeptical of that survey. I’m the stereotypical "Caucasian married to an Asian wife" and it’s just not that common, at least in my neck of the woods. I’d doubt the real number is even 10%.

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