Strengthening Constitutional Self-Government

No Left Turns

Wilson, Plame, Rove and Miller

Win Myers calls our attention to this op-ed, which says all that we need to know about Karl Rove’s possible involvement in this affair, and this rather interesting speculation by John Podhoretz.

Discussions - 66 Comments

I hope Phil Thompson reads this...he’ll find out about how the MSM has endorsed the notion that no crime was committed here.

The sad thing is this. The MSM is so far left that they will run NO story discrediting Joe Wilson who they trumped ad nausem for months. Not only that they are blowing this whole thing out of proportion. The fact of the matter is that Time and The New York Times were going to run a story stating that Dick Cheney did such and such. It appears what Rove said was well you are wrong it was really Joe Wilson’s wife. The point being that the MSM was going to run an article bashing Cheney and all Rove did was tell them the truth. What about this can the MSM not understand? What about this even resembles a resignation. I think it has gotten to the point where the MSM is blind and delusional with hate.

But Dain, haven’t you "taught" us all before that we SHOULDN’T trust the MSM??
(Or was that not the Real Dain?)

Maybe YOU’RE the FAKE Dain! As far as the MSM, this is called "forced evidence." It’s not something they want to admit, but they want their reporters off the hook...even if it means "absolving" Rove.

Well, if we lefties dislike anyone more than we dislike GWB, it is Karl Rove, the one we suppose is actually pulling many of the strings that animate Bush’s evil actions and his brain facsimile.

I am going to enjoy watching Rove go down, and I am already enjoying watching defenders on the right falling all over each other to protect this guy! Bad enough that he sat silently while Miller went to jail to protect him. What a coward!

But, the REAL controllers of the MSM are good. Already, the public’s attention (and yours) is wavering away from the fact that Wilson’s wife WAS exposed BY Rove in retribution for Wilson’s public (and justified!) criticism of bush and his lies. Spin away, but I think and hope that history will prove that you are defending a sinking, rotting ship.

Defending a sinking and rotting ship? This is absolutely hilarious coming from a avowed defender of the sinking and rotting political philosophy called liberalism. Maybe you would not feel so rejected if the American voter hadn’t absolutely rejected that philosophy in 2000, 2002 and 2004. Liberals want blood, because all they really have to grasp at now are lies and urban myths, and right now they suppose that Karl Rove is the free meal of the day. Heres hoping that they choke on Joe Wilson.

I’m not the first to ask this, but if Karl Rove thinks it’s in the best interest of the administration to expose a CIA agent and her operation (i.e., that she’s "fair game" in Rove’s words, because the underlying need is to discredit Wilson), then that’s OK? Will he do it again? And Republicans are OK with that, as long as the aim is to discredit an administration opponent?

Dear "Amused",

Well, if this blog is any indication, the liberal ship has already completed sinking, but I disagree. So, be amused all you want, but the War in Iraq, the price of oil, the apparent ability of terrorists to strike our Iraqi and British allies, the growing list of administrative lies and blunders, the growing list of American casualties, and the growing distrust of the administration that lied to legitimize those families’ sacrifices.... all of that is closing and reversing the tiny gap that you refer to as an absolute rejection. You want to see rejection, how’s the privatization of Social Security going? How’s that coalition of the willing doing?

Have you forgotten how tiny the margin of victory was for Bush in 2004 and 2000? Talk about hyperbole!

Karl Rove has been a creep for decades. Liberals hate him, and we enjoy his pain. That is true independently of having been "absolutely rejected" 51% to 49%.

I’m interested: Why are so many of you so confident that the checks and balances, the ebb and flow of power that characterize American history, is over? You remind me of Dallas Cowboys fans,waving their foam fingers and shouting about "America’s Team," as though their sudden status was permanent. Do any of you ever wake up in the middle of the night with a cold sweat, wondering how your gloating, arrogant, short-sighted verbiage will taste when you have to eat it?

So, in addition to your problems at math and your tendency to exaggerate, you strike me as, at best, bad winners. At worst, you are blind to your own history and probably, to your own future.


She was an analyst not an undercover agent!!!!! He exposed her as the one who was behind the Joe Wilson fiasco and not Dick Cheney.

"Bad enough that he sat silently while Miller went to jail to protect him" quoting Funky above

Now I know that using logic with liberals in the room is usually an exercise which will generate a very high level of frustration, similar to dealing with a two year old at nap time, but here goes anyway.

Rove has signed a general waiver of the confidentiality reporters have afforded him. That is what Cooper publicly cited as to why he is now willing to testify. So Rove has released Judith Miller, yet she still refuses to testify. Do you think that maybe its because her source is different? Probably? Is her source Joe Wilson and therefore she does not want to make the NYT look completely foolish ( I know I know but humor me). I am guessing that Wilson has a very interesting story to tell and Karl Rove aint in it. Joe Liar Wilson most likely is.

Substitute J. Miller in the second to last line above. typing too fast.

I agree that too many people are saying that this is the "end of history" and all that. As long as people can be motivated by envy and class-hatred there will be a Democrat Party (whatever it calls itself). But there has been a power shift, you must agree. Let’s see...the GOP controls 1) the executive branch, 2) the legislative branch, 3) the judiciary branch (at least, very soon now), 4) 28 governorships, and 5) about 50% of the state legislators (in the 1970s the Democrats controlled 70%).

So, Fung, I agree...Democrats haven’t been totally rejected, but they are now a minority party, and increasingly they are being forced to run pseudo-moderates at the national level...the country simply won’t tolerate an honest-to-Darwin liberal!

But look on the bright side! Being in the minority means you are don’t have to be merely common. For liberals, being special (i.e., better, at least in their own minds) is what it’s all about. And given the difference in birth rate, you folks will be different and special for a very long time. :)

Here is an interesting piece of info from the NY Times

First, the C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given Mrs. Wilson’s name (along with those of other spies) to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994. So her undercover security was undermined at that time, and she was brought back to Washington for safety reasons.

Second, as Mrs. Wilson rose in the agency, she was already in transition away from undercover work to management, and to liaison roles with other intelligence agencies. So this year, even before she was outed, she was moving away from "noc" — which means non-official cover, like pretending to be a business executive. After passing as an energy analyst for Brewster-Jennings & Associates, a C.I.A. front company, she was switching to a new cover as a State Department official, affording her diplomatic protection without having "C.I.A." stamped on her forehead.

Third, Mrs. Wilson’s intelligence connections became known a bit in Washington as she rose in the C.I.A. and moved to State Department cover, but her job remained a closely held secret. Even her classmates in the C.I.A.’s career training program mostly knew her only as Valerie P. That way, if one spook defected, the damage would be limited.

I wonder why the MSM hasn’t been constantly reminding us of those three very useful pieces of information?

Okay, really, I don’t wonder why.

Dain, brilliant commentary. Your sense of history does not go back very far tho. I hope you are happy with the state of affairs in the country - because I think its sad - the divided states of america. my hope someday is a politician - and i don’t care what party they are from - is so inspiring that they can bring this country back together because this is so very destructive. we are all losing - the Republicans are too stupid to know that.

’Scuse me "Yeah", but just what is the "vision" of the Democrats. What do they propose? What are their solutions to the supposed problems plaguing our country?

I mean all I see is hatred, bile, sarcasm, and negativity eminating from the mouths of Harry Reid, Pelosi, Boxer, Schumer, Kerry, Kennedy (A Bridge to Far), etc, etc, ad naseum. Not to mention Dick(head) Durbin’s neo-Lavalist observations regarding ’Club Gitmo’

Who in the hell’s side are these characters on?

Yeah, there is nothing quite as unifying as calling someone stupid. You complain about divisiveness... go look in the mirror.

Here’s an interesting take on Karl Rove’s future.

Karl Rove Will Survive

Just exactly how what is the problem here? Even the author of the act that folks like Fung are so quick to jail Rove with states that Rove has not done anything illegal in regards to the act or otherwise. There is nothing illegal here, period.

I am curious if some above ranted about how invading Iraq was all about oil? For some reason I believe they probably were.

From the WSJ repub talking points: "...there’s no evidence that Mr. Rove broke any laws.." That’s bullshit. The anon person who wrote that has no way of knowing what evidence has been exposed in the grand jury sessions. According to all the wackaloon sheep, Fitzgerald has been wasting his time and tax payer’s money. Right. This fascist maggot has a good chance of going down.

"For liberals, being special (i.e., better, at least in their own minds) is what it’s all about. And given the difference in birth rate, you folks will be different and special for a very long time."

Mr./Ms. Dain, what evidence do you have for any of these assertions? Also, are you assuming that children always belong to the same political party as their parents do??

"Red" state fertility, even among native born women, is higher than "blue" state fertility. That’s common knowledge (scope the ’Net and you’ll find it). As for children following in the political footsteps of their parents, they call that "culture." That’s why regionalism exists, why blue-collar families tend to remain blue-collar, and why political shifts generally take a while.

Karl Rove will be leaving the White House to become chief of operations at NPR. I understand there will be some re-vamping of the editorial approach, as well as significant turnover in the reporting and announcing staff.

This is what is called a win-win among undercover intelligence blog-analysts whose names must remain unspoken.

of the way I, a Cleveland Browns fan, used to feel about the Green Bay Packers quarterback, Bart Starr.

Karl Rove has been a creep for decades. Liberals hate him, and we enjoy his pain.

But at least I had to concede, in my honest moments, the Pack beat up my Brownies because they were a better football team. I confess that I enjoy watching these liberals hate, squirm, pick and peck in the gutter, always searching for some dirt, some scandal, some Nixonian crime by which to defeat their foes. Meanwhile, their foes manage to win another election... and another... and

Of course winning isn’t everything, it’s...

So, was there really not much of a shift politically when the electorate went from Clinton to George W.? I’m not sure I’m following you here. Also, back to your earlier post, what evidence do you have that "For liberals, being special (i.e., better, at least in their own minds) is what it’s all about."? I’m unclear on that one.

Serious narcissism is a trait of the’s why that hold things like "Live 8" -- ignoring the fact that aid to Africa never gets to the people who need it, and that governmental reform is what’s needed there. "Giving" isn’t about making a difference, it’s about feeling good about yourself. There are millions of examples of this.

Clinton ran as a moderate. That’s what the Democrats are forced to do.

This is off topic a bit, but what the hell is with all of the ad postings? That is kind of annoying.

Ad postings? There aren’t might have some serious malware running (generates stuff like popups, banner ads, redirects, etc.).

Dain, that is not what I meant. I mean people making a post for a website or some on line gambling site. For an example of what I talking about click on comments by are readers and look at the first comment of the day. There are several a day. It is not a big deal, I just thought it was annoying.

Nope, Mike, clicked on several. No problems. Are you sure you don’t have some malware...redirect software is very, very common.

It’s the end of a great day listening and reading. The spin is going like this: (1) Karl Rove is a "whistleblower," (therefore, we are expected to link him with Deep Throat, and treat him as a hero, because we are too stupid to think around a label) (2)Plame wasn’t an agent. (Yes, she was, and so what if she wasn’t? But, she was) (3) Wilson lied, which makes Rove somehow less an immoral, unstable, dangerous creep with sensitive information at his disposal (No, Wilson did not lie. But, Bush DID say that anyone involved in this from his cabinet would be fired. Did he lie? Again? (4) The evidence shows that Rove did not break the law. (No, it does not. The evidence is not all in, but at best it fails thus far to show that he DID break the law, since it is an "ongoing investigation." (5) The evidence shows that Rove merely used bad judgment. (No, when the best you can say is that your moral turpitude is not exactly illegal, it is not a good day. Remember the "high moral ground" that we were going to revisit when these yahoos took the White House? Now, the best they can do is hire a bunch of attorneys and claim that, so far, no one has found them guilty. So, move over Tom DeLay, there’s more work for the defense lawyers!!!!

Oh, are such a blowhard sometimes. It’s WAY too late in this thread for me to beat you down to reasonableness. I’ve noticed that, with proper correction (i.e., being confronted by evidence of your own overstatements and inaccuracies), you can be quite reasonable at times. But that takes something like 10 posts!

1) Bush NEVER said he would fire a leaker. The quotes are above. Stop putting words in his mouth.

2) The argument was whether or not Plame was a COVERT agent is not illegal to reveal the identity of a simple agent. I’m pretty sure the Courts will find she was not a covert agent at the time this happened.

3) It is very likely that Rove may not have know her NAME at the time. It’s pretty hard to KNOW someone is a covert agent if you don’t even know her name.

Keep slavering for his head, Fung (and company). You’ll so politicize it he’ll get off (assuming he’s guilty). You people are so transparent.

Dain-At the rate you are spinning, you must be getting dizzy! These are very important, substantive points that you are making. If you are right, then I might actually want to marry the guy!

This strange argument about whether Rove knew Plame’s name..... It’s weak. I don’t know Rove’s mother’s name, either, but I bet if I told a joke about her, he’d be insulted! Then I could say, "Hey" I don’t even know her name! What’s all the fuss about?"

Covert, overseas agent vs a "simple" agent? I think this is a "simple" argument. He outed a CIA agent. Maybe he thought his reasons were good ones. Either way, he’s bad news, and he needs to go.

Sorry you are so tired, Dain. When the mettle is weak and the going gets tough, one looks to one’s friends. In your case, the friend is named "Bunny Slippers."

My condolences.

This is getting to be very tiresome. As far as I can tell Rove violated no law. Mizz Plame was not a covert agent. The lady who helped draft the law that Rove supposedly violated said he did nothing wrong. This is old news being regurgitated by the DNC and Dr. Demento-Dean.

Those that wish to believe this BS like Fung and other neo-liberal myrmidons reminds me of a comment by Leon Trotsky, of all people, that can be applied today. It seems that in the 1930’s Trotsky had an apparent fallout with fellow traveler, NY intellectual Dwight MacDonald. Trotsky is said to have commented that"Everybody has a right to be stupid. But comrade MacDonald abuses the priviledge".

Fung and cohorts seem to continue to abuse the priviledge as well.

So many words, Fung, and not one damned idea! Not a new record, but amusing nonetheless. All the stuff I mentioned MATTERS for the question of criminality. And if it ain’t criminal, he shouldn’t "go." As for Plame being a CIA agent, they should have purged her years ago -- why do you think this agency is so incompetent? Anyone who would suggest her own husband for an important mission...well, don’t they call that nepotism or something? Where’s the outrage, Fung? The State Department has the same problem...too many political hacks and overeducated idiots, not enough patriots.

Dain - It is difficult to write while I am throwing up, but I’ll give it a try.


You’re going to cry NEPOTISM while you support the administration of George Bush Junior? Who couldn’t manage his way out of a beer bottle without oil/baseball/Yale leftovers and favors from George the First? Whose brother is the governor of Florida? Where the first election was overseen and stolen from the American people?

Whose Vice President is so tied to Haliburton that the oil/reconstruction dollars are falling out of his pockets?


Sorry, I have now cleaned up my keyboard. At the end of the day, Rove outed a CIA operative because her husband told the truth about a President who is the biggest liar since Richard Nixon, and the worst president in the history of this country.

Nepotism. That’s the issue, alright. You people kill me.

Fung is truely "abusing the priviledge"

Dang! Trotsky may be right.

Nepotism has a specific meaning, Fung. Last I looked, George Sr., George Jr., and Jeb were elected to their offices. Are you really that confused? As for VP Cheney and Haliburton...there is no "there there" as was said at the time. He is guilty of working for a coporation...BFD. If there had been any wrongdoing on his part he’d be in court by now. Stop with the BS, Fung.

And how ANYONE could have voted for Clinton and then accuse Bush of being the biggest liar since Nixon astounds me! Actually, Bush has run a squeeky-clean administration...we haven’t had the scandal de jour like we did under Clinton (and NO, those weren’t manufactured...the man and his wife are inveterate LIARS). As for the worse President in the last 40 years, I’d say Carter and Clinton (worthless Southern yellowdog Democrats) are tied for that honor.

And in the spirit of tradeoff, people like you should give Rove a pass. After making conservative Republicans live through the definition of "is," I figure you folks owe us (at least) one.

Yes, they were elected, and rose miraculously out of a pool of otherwise equal choices, all with equal chances. No, Dain. Like many right-wingers, you ignore how important family and good luck are to the wealthy. This generation of Bushes haven’t exactly started life in the mean streets! They are incredibly lucky to have been born into families with wealth and power, just as GWB was lucky to inherit a country with a strong economy and a strong military. Look how long it took him to squander both, along with the good will that we enjoyed among our allies. I wouldn’t let that jerk borrow my second car for a trip to the package store.

And even though you have invited it, I will not get into contrasting the lies of Bush, which have resulted in the deaths of nearly 1800 service people thus far, and countless innocent lives, as well, with the lie of Clinton, which resulted in zero deaths, zero invasions of countries, and zero future terrorists.

And this Administration spent its "pass" for the ’"is" is’ travesty a long time ago. Rove gets no slack from me!!!

Fung you said,

(No, Wilson did not lie. But, Bush DID say that anyone involved in this from his cabinet would be fired. Did he lie? Again?

Where does it play into your that the Senate intellegence committee said Wilson was indeed a liar. That includes such D’s as Durbin, Rockefeller, etc.....

Hey, Cammy here with another Summer Movie Update! So, Batman’s been out in the theaters for some time now. I hope you’ve all had a chance to see it!! I’m not really as excited about Charlie and the Chocolate Factory as I once was, but I still think I’ll probably see it tonight. I know this isn’t particularly Jermaine to the other topics, but I love to share my enthusiasm for film with others.

Fung, you disappoint me...I’m being quite serious. I took you for a mainstream Liberal, but I guess you are just another lunatic. I guess I should have expected it.

1) So, given your argument about the Bush family, I should expect you to resent the Kennedy clan as well? Actually, your argument is pure crap. There are LOTS of very rich families out there, but how many of them have produced 2 Presidents and 1 Governor (hint, only the Kennedys come close). By any standard, the Bush family isn’t your run-of-the-mill spoiled brat silver-spoon crowd of rich bastards. They are uniquely accomplished. The idea that nepotism is involved is ludicrous.

2) Clinton’s lies didn’t kill anyone, that’s true. They were merely base and revealed him to be a tiny little loser at heart. Bush, on the other, never lied to anyone. Every major security agency in the developed world was convinced Saddam had those weapons. You STUPID people need to open your (&^$# eyes and ears and hear something besides your own prattle.

3) The whole Haliburton much money has that company actually made in Iraq. Did you know that they are one of only about 5 firms that could have done the job, and they had the best bid and the best track record? In terms of the "blood for oil" BS, any economist can tell you that American oil companies don’t stand to make much on this deal. Those oil fields will revert to Iraqi control...oh, never mind. You’re too far gone.

Dain, Dain, Dain-

1) The name of Roosevelt comes to mind. Teddy and FDR were both Governors and were both Presidents. It was a while ago, but I still think you might have heard of them.

(2) Resent the Kennedy’s? Well, (a) they are not my heroes, if that’s what you mean, and (b) I would certainly resent any suggestion that my sone and a Kenndy son had equal chances of being elected Governor or President.

(3) Bush never lied to anyone? Where to start? First, he DID say that he would fire anyone involved in the Rove/Plame business. When asked if he stood by the statement that he would fire anyone.... he said "Yes." Second, he has lied about aid to Africa for AIDs, he lied about WMDs, he lied about Al Quaeda in Iraq, he lied about "Mission Accomplished," he lied when he said that he would raise the moral bar. He lied when he talked about his "record" in the "Military." And he lied about Niger.

Every security agency was confinced? Were these "simple" agents, or "covert" agents? Even I was not confinced, Dain!!! The UN was not convinced!! The whole world was not convinced, except for a rag-tag group of Third-world countries with IOU’s to GWB who sent a bunch of pies and donuts to Iraq as support.

How much did Haliburton make? First, they aren’t done, are they? Second, where are those other five or so companies? Third, do you mean before or after they were found to have raped the US taxpayers by overbilling and overcharging?

Go back to sleep, buddy. Reality is too horrible for your little brain. Just click your Doc Martins together and say, "Thinking only hurts my brain. Thinking only hurts my brain. Thinking......."

Fung, you apparently don’t understand Dain’s style of making "natural" mistakes. When he said "There are LOTS of very rich families out there, but how many of them have produced 2 Presidents and 1 Governor (hint, only the Kennedys come close)," that was a "TYPO", especially the hint. His fingers slipped on the keyboard again - a natural mistake...

With each postFunglegitimizes Trotsky’s observation that "Everyone has a right to be stupid. But ( Fung) abuses the priviledge".

Simply amazing. But then his "proof" or drivel may just come out of the screeds one finds in "Indymedia" articles.

Okay, everybody. Let’s acknowledge Jesse’s Trotsky allusion. He keeps squeezing it in, and no one has noticed.

I noticed, Jesse. You are very witty, and that was a good comment. Now, go to bed

Dear Fung:

Roosevelt...cousins, right. Close, but no cigar.

You are absolutely correct...YOUR son will never be President. For some reason that makes me feel much better about our country.

I would have to see where he said "yes" to firing someone. So many of you people have lied about what he actually said, I won’t believe it without seeing it. Moreover, he full statement makes clear that criminality must be involved before he would take appropriate action. Why should he fire someone who didn’t break the satisfy you Leftist nutcases? I don’t think so.

Everything you say he "lied" about is simply false. Saddam did have WMDs...he used them. Perhaps he did get rid of them, so WHY DIDN’T HE PROVE THAT TO US WHEN HE HAD THE CHANCE? As I recall, he submitted a 10,000 page load of crap which satisfied no one. He acted guilty, EVERY SECURITY AGENCY in the developed world thought he had them. Believing he had them and the willingness to do anything about are two different things...I suggest you read the UN resolutions that actually passed. At best, all you can say is Bush was WRONG (and, by the way, Bill Clinton and his administration thought the same...and that can be documented). Mistaken, perhaps. Lying...NO. Aid to Africa is contigent, as it should be...the place is a black hole for aid. Al Queda DID have contacts with Steven Hayes’ book on the subject. And Britain still stands by their report on the yellow cake in Niger...and Joe Wilson did nothing but lie about this situation.

The five principal U.S. oil and gas engineering and services companies are Halliburton, Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, BJ Services, and Weatherford International. If you had even the foggiest notion of what Iraq needs in terms of oil and gas infrastructure you’d understand why it requires a very large company with high capitalization. All of you screaming Leftists are idiots when it comes to the real world. Halliburton is supposed to recuse itself because of what dumbass professors and smelly protestors might say about their connection with Cheney? Eh, BS. As for "raping" the taxpayer, let’s talk about the National Science Foundation and the Institutes of Health and how they piss away our money on useless research! Irregularities in Halliburton billing are strictly small beer.

As for my "little brain," I’m not the one wholly dependent on The Daily Kos for my information. When it comes to these political matters, you are an ignoramus. That’s not my fault.

To M.E.S. -

you may be right. Or, you may be seeing something that is not there. I must confess, though, that I do not understand your point. Can you help? thanks!

For the record, I never said that my son would not, or could not, be president. I said that I resent the notion that my sons and a Kennedy might compete for the Presidency on a level playing field. Either one of my sons may well have what it takes to BE a great president.

But, that is not the same as inheriting a ready system of promotion, NEPOTISM, and privilege that makes advancement not only easy, but automatic.

As for the Roosevelts, you said "family," you nit picker! Cousins are family, right?

As for the 10,000 page load of crap: The reason is satisfied no one is two-fold: First, Bush never thought that Iraq would comply. After they did, he had to find another acceptable reason to invade. WMD’s. No. How ’bout terrorists? No, that will come AFTER we bring them their freedom. Second, someone might have to read it, in order to see what it said. Saddam forgot to insert pictures of monkeys and bunnies, so that GWB could stay interested in it.

Of course he HAD WMD’s. But, they were gone. Remember? We haven’t found any, yet?

He lied, and everyone knows it.

And I’m sorry about that "little brain" remark. I’m sure that it is just the right size for your little hat with the propeller on top. Maybe you can wear it at the next meeting of stockholders at Halliburton. You are getting some payoff from them, right? If not, then you’re just being completely duped. When you’re done doing their dirty work for them, I’d like you to clean my gutters.

Mornin’ Fung. Got some sleep and lookie whut ah found.In the New Yawk Times no less.

"Nadagate"? Ah do think so.

"So what exactly is this scandal about? Why are the villagers still screaming to burn the witch? Well, there’s always the chance that the prosecutor will turn up evidence of perjury or obstruction of justice during the investigation, which would just prove once again that the easiest way to uncover corruption in Washington is to create it yourself by investigating nonexistent crimes"- Tierney

Fung, my point was that the Father and Sons accomplishment of the Bushs really hasn’t been matched since the J and JQ Adams.

Your MO gets tiresome. I blast you with facts and you come back with sarcasm. Did you read the UN resolutions? NO. Did you find out why it takes a very large company to "fix" the Iraqi oil fields? NO. Did you look at the press reports when Saddam issued his famous 10,000 page report (much of it in Arabic, to delay the discovery that it left out the most important weapon systems)? NO. Did you ever wonder why, during the long wind-up to the Iraqi invasion, that bits and pieces of missle were turning up in European scrapyards? NO. Have you ever addressed all the Euro politicians Saddam had on his payroll? NO.

What you did do, Fung, was to read the Daily Kos and learn how to scream and point your finger. What a pathetic excuse for an academician you are, Fung...but so many of your colleagues are like this. They should all be stripped of their Ph.D.’s and forced to work in the oil fields...for Halliburton. Then you all would begin to understand what REAL people do in the REAL world to make modernity possible. Your ignorance sickens me, and since you’ll be teaching your son the same BS, he’ll never be fit for dogcatcher much less POTUS.

Oops! Addressed it like a letter! Mea culpa! Message #50 was of course by DAIN to Fung.

Ok, truth is, I am a dogcatcher unusually bitter one who finds it necessary to spew vitriol in blog comments as I pick at the infected dogbite wounds on my arms and legs. I wish I had a PhD.

Hey, copycat, I’ll bet you anything I’m at least as well educated as you. And, while I love dogs, I don’t catch strays for the city...I leave that to lowlifes like yourself. Have a nice day.

Dain- You are right. I did not read Saddam’s 10,000 page collection of documents. I did, however, read many press reports. Documents in Arabic from Iraq? That IS surprising, and obviously smells of subterfuge. I heard that it was suggested that all White House correspondence to Saddam should be translated INTO Arabic, but there is no translation for "duh" or "misunderestimation." Bata ching.

But, you know, and I know that Saddam had and used WMD’s. He is a bad guy, and I am glad he’s out of commission. We also know that the WMD’s had been successfully eradicated, and that probably no one has more such fire power on this planet than we do. So, when evidence shows up across the globe that Iraq had weapons, we should not be surprised. We also know that Iraq is a huge mess, with more "terrorists" and car bombings and kidnappings than ever before. There was a time, if you recall, that we supported and helped Iraq, back when Iran was our enemy, and Saddam was our friend.

My question about Halliburton’s competitors was misunderstood. You are right: I didn’t know who they were. My question to you was, why did they lose the competition? Why is Halliburton the centerpiece of the Oil field reconstruction effort? My guess is that the field of competition is not level. Do I know? I don’t.

Now, here is a response to the rest of your screaming tantrum. There are a lot of things that I am not expert on. Many of those areas are entrusted to people who have more authority and expertise than I do, or you do. This forum is really an "armchair quarterback" forum for those of us who are busily raising our families, or pursuing professional careers, or (in your case) sitting in our basements surrounded by batteries, wires, comic books, and headless action figures.

I assume that Joe, John, Robert, and Peter et al. are learned in their fields. I can’t and won’t compete with them, and I probably can’t compete with you in your field. But, it IS fun to have the opportunity to play in this forum, and pretend that we all know something, isn’t it? But, you ruin the illusion when you scream and rant SELECTIVELY about facts. No one has all the facts in the ongoing investigation about Rove, Plame, and Wilson, and Novak. So, we play!

In addition, you and I have debated ad nauseum about a number of things on which I AM expert, and I have supplied you with studies, websites, and plenty of facts. You don’t like those, either. You see conspiracy, ineptitude, and bias behind every fact that makes you uncomfortable. You categorize every person who diagrees with you in an insulting, stereotyping, and rigid manner. You pretend to know what’s going on in their heads, when you can’t even recognize the ground zero that is your own cognitive squirrel nest.

So, do what you want, of course. But your screaming demand for authoritative "proof" instead of sarcasm wears thin, and you demand that proof selectively, and often interspersed with a great deal of sarcasm and name-calling.

I’m going to move soon to another posting, cause I think we’ve gotten all the mileage we can out of this one. Later, ya big Koo Koo!

Fung...I don’t even know what to say to this. I thought all social scientists should be in the habit of collecting evidence and then making up their minds, but you do the reverse. Indeed, you don’t even consult evidence. Had you read the UN resolutions, or commentary about the Iraqi oil industry, or any of the things I suggest, you wouldn’t be able to remain as stupidly radicalized. Instead, you blather about specializations and how we can’t know things, blah blah blah. Don’t waste my time.

You have a wealth of evidence at your fingertips. The Internet is slowly freeing us from the tyranny of the information gatekeepers. True, it takes education to make use of such evidence, and some experience in discerning good from bad sources, but for the first time the "arm-chair" legions can contribute to national debate. Just look at Rathergate, :)

As for my "style," you’d better examine your own. This was post #5, your first of this thread:

"Well, if we lefties dislike anyone more than we dislike GWB, it is Karl Rove, the one we suppose is actually pulling many of the strings that animate Bush’s evil actions and his brain facsimile.
I am going to enjoy watching Rove go down, and I am already enjoying watching defenders on the right falling all over each other to protect this guy! Bad enough that he sat silently while Miller went to jail to protect him. What a coward!

But, the REAL controllers of the MSM are good. Already, the public’s attention (and yours) is wavering away from the fact that Wilson’s wife WAS exposed BY Rove in retribution for Wilson’s public (and justified!) criticism of bush and his lies. Spin away, but I think and hope that history will prove that you are defending a sinking, rotting ship."

Not very thoughtful, Fung, and full of juicy HATE language. Compared to you, I’m a real gentleman.

come on dain give us a little more background on yourself since you’re such a regular commenter here! what do you do for a living and what is your educational background? be honest now, your conscience is at stake! hell, maybe you do a have a PhD!

Come on, Mike, even Superman protects his identity (and bullets bounce right off him!). Just keep reading...

I have never pretended that I like Rove. But I still like you, Dainie!

Just a quick piece of advice: Watch the superhero identification, okay? It hurts your argument when you pose as the great rationalist, calling liberals narcissists with unrealistic points of view.

Better stay in your basement with your action figures and your Randall knife collection, and avoid those roofstops until the Haldol does its work!

Oh Fung, you say the nicest things! I wasn’t compairing myself to Superman...I was saying that if an invicible guy like that found anonymity useful, surely I would. Are all leftists so slow on the uptake?

And what’s a "Randall knife collection?"

It’s more than one Randall knife, owned by the same person. Duh.

To Jesse Fan: Shouldn’t you be using the name Foghorn Leghorn? OK, we get it, you’re Mr. Deep South- now can you stop typing with a Southern drawl?

Fung, ever the smarta$$. Fine...I’m not going to waste my time looking up "Randall knives" so that I can understand your oblique insult, particularly since it comes from a man whose sole hobbies are growing shrooms and spewing bile online. Later, dude.

Miss Jasscence whar is ya sense of hughma?

Ah feel honored by bein’ associated with Mistah Leghorn. And ah thank his fathers, Mistah Jack Warner and Mistah Stan Jones.

Fung - in regard to your question in comment 46, see this Rove thread, and check comments 3, 13, 14, 17, etc. to get some idea of what Dain’s ever-expanding notion of what a typo is... Good stuff!

Does M.E.S. stand for More Egregious Stupidities? You can poke fun at me all you like (sometimes I get in a hurry and make small mistakes...BFD). The ultimate message is what matters to me. So, laugh away while I deconstruct your worldview, dude.

To M.E.S.- Thanks for the response! Almost makes ya feel bad for the guy!

I was determined to leave this discussion behind, but it is interesting to note that no one still suspects Miller of protecting Wilson, do they? Instead, she has been protecting.... Scooter! Who works for......Cheney! This just gets better and better.

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