This is the reaction you’ll get through most of Iraq, as well.

People are always complaining that Iran was the bigger threat to American security than Iraq. That is probably true, but Iran is also much more "responsive" to outside pressure and influence because of its extremely young population (and what foreign young people DON’T like America?) I believe the figure is something like 70% of Iran’s population is under 30. We could use the CIA to implement regime change over there, no need to invade. What farsighted men we elected to lead our nation. . .

Dear Vet- I was thinking of starting a USA Booster Club over there in Iraq. Got any pointers regarding some good locations for my booth?

We’ll have little American flags, miniature Humvees, camo helmet-bottle-openers, life-sized George Bush balloons, pin-the-tail-on-Cindy Sheehan games, and lots of "I’m with stupid" t-shirts left over from the county fair.

We’d like your advice. Maybe some little place that isn’t likely to get bombed by the welcoming committee (or us, for that matter! Wouldn’t that be ironic! heh-heh-heh.)

What is your point? Just state it.

THEY ARE SHOOTING AT US OVER THERE. KILLING MANY OF US. APPROACHING 1900, LAST TIME I LOOKED. NINETEEN HUNDRED DEAD SOLDIERS!!!!!!!!!!

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?

Us? When were you shot at?

Check your data. Not nearly that many have been killed by an enemy. Considering the 500,000 of US that have been there, we’re doing extremely well.

By the way, I could give you names of a hundred places in Iraq that love us and are thankful for us ... but you don’t care. You would just rather be cute and snide.

My, my...such anger! Who is "they?" I doubt we’ll win any popularity contests with the Sunnis, but the Shiia and (particularly) the Kurds appreciate some of what we are doing. As for Iran...well, I don’t think the situation is so simple. They just had an election over there and a hardliner won. I don’t think that endorses the notion that the regime in tottering in any sense.

You know, Dain, I am angry. I’m angry that the left, and people like that is exploiting the lives of my brothers and sisters that have been killed in Iraq - all the while self-righteously decrying the sacrifice that they WILLINGLY made as being useless. You can be indignant at my anger, but I have earned that right. I’ve been shot at. I’ve shot back. And I would do it again if called - because it’s more than just some of what we’re doing there that is appreciated. I can count friends in that leftistly-convenient number "1900", and I KNOW that they didn’t sacrifice their lives for nothing. The only way that they will have done so, is if we give up on the great successes we have everyday. I’d ask for you to excuse my anger, but I don’t care if you excuse it or not. I’ll remain angry at those who chose to remain stupid, and from this point on I’ll remain silent because this is not worth my time - though it is certainly worth my anger.

Dear Vet, I expect the anger that Dain is talking about is what he thinks is MY anger, because of the capital letters I used, since you pretended to misunderstand me.

Just to be clear: It is human nature to want to believe that your sacrifice and risk are for a reason. But that belief doesn’t make you right, and it doesnt make Bush’s lies true. I admire and respect what soldiers and Marines put themselves through to protect and defend their country. What I do not admire is the leadership of this country, especially when we know that Iraq is a mess, Korea is a mess, new Orleans is a mess, and they try to make us believe that its all fine and dandy. So, be proud of what you’ve done. but, don’t try to tell those of us who have lost loved ones over there that it is a safe and welcoming place. Another person that i care about might believe you, and add to that number that you disregard.

Actually, Vet, you’ll notice that your first post and mine where only 3 minutes apart. I was actually addressing "Lt. Dan." I agree with you.

You know what LT. Dan, i bet you’ve never served a single day in your life for this great country of ours the United States (of America). What are you in a leuitenent in, the Guardian Angels??? Well tell your boss Curtis Sliwa that we don’t consider your "ranks" to be worth a whistle. But anyway back to the point at hand:, When you make the kind of treasonous comments like you’ve been making, you are affecting all of the Brave men and women who are serving overseas. Yes, I do mean that. I mean that when you disparadge there good name by saying that what they do has no darn value, then hey, they hear about that kind of thing.

OH and exactly how did Bush lie? He said that if we didn’t fight the war over there it would be fought over here- in AMERICA. I bet your family is glad that the war isn’t being fought in there backyard. JUst imagine your cooking hotdogs on the BBQ grill in the backyard and look, here comes a gang of terrorists marawding across the neighborhood. Or how would you like to come of your dentist office and be faced with an automatic kalishnikoff held by a terrorist. I bet you wouldn’t like it.

Bush told us there were WMDS in Iraq and there were. Saddam and Osamma worked together to bring us 9/11 and that has been PROVED my friend. And just how do you figure that KOrea is a mess? Last I checked, they were running scared from the words of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Good day.

War is a fact of human existence. Most wars are much more costly than the one we are currently working on wrapping up. I do not "disregard" the 1900 dead, but when taken into perspective we are doing well. After many low-casualty ventures post-Vietnam, Americans have become accostumed to almost casualty-less conflicts and those we’ve lost in Iraq seem to be an unbearable amount. Historically, though, Iraq will not be seen as the misadventure the Left is painting it as when one looks back at battles like Okinawa (20,000 dead marines) or Antietam (6,000 dead in one hour). The best way to tell who was right and who was wrong is to sit back and wait a few decades.

Hey, Fat Mike- Treason? To question a liar in a democracy is treason? Even if I was wrong, and bush told the truth (which is not the case, but even if I was wrong) it would not be treason to question the decisions of an elected official in a democracy.

If you want to believe that the world is safer because the terrorists are so stupid that Iraq has made them forget where the U.S. is, well go ahead. You really think there aren’t enough to go around? Tell that to Spain, and Great Britain, and Israel, and Indonesia, and Lebanon. Tell that to your buddies on this website when they DO attack, here.

Did you hear Colin Powell on TV just last week say that he never saw ANY evidence that Iraq was in collusion with bin Laden? Was that treason?

Get a grip, Mike. You yell and holler about this great country of ours-- if people like you had their way, it would slide so far back into the Dark Ages, that Iraq would look enlightened. You need to understand the difference between true patriotism and blind obedience.

Lt. Dan I notice that your not denying that your in the Guardian Angels.

You got it. Just too clever for me. All those years of crushing beer cans against your forehead really paid off.

Well Lt. Dan you didn’t really address many of my points. Did you bother to take the time to read the story I linked to? Osamma and Saddam were in kahoots and therefore Iraq NEEDED to be invaded. Please address this point as well as explain what your a leuitenent of.

Fat Mike, I have a friend who’s in the marines, on leave right now, who would argue that we shouldn’t be over there, that most Iraqis don’t like Americans, Bush did lie, and that he doesn’t feel bad when people talk negatively about the war because he’ll be the first to do so. Also, I’m not sure how the link you posted proves there were WMDs (read: there were no WMDs, just chemical plants). What sort of military background do you have that you can attack someone based on the name they post under? Forget the personal attacks for a second and look at the facts. You bother me.

Hey Fat Mike- I did follow your link, and it gave me news about 170 people dead due to suicide bombings. Nothing about anyone yelling "I love America!’ which is what started this wierd argument.

As for the Lieutenant part, I am using the same name that i used as a joke in another post. We were talking about the movie ’Forest Gump," and so I used the name Lt. Dan in that post. So, I used that name in this post. I didn’t mean to offend anyone with that fake name, and I can sure see why it might have offended a real veteran. That was not my plan.

On the other hand, I meant it about the beer cans!

Bush’s claim about the war in Iraq preventing a war here is stupid. I might as well claim that standing on my head prevents martians. The proof that i am right is the lack of martians! That works until they arrive, and then i can blame their arrival on local and regional governments. then, when my ratings drop down through the toilet, I can "take responsibility" and act like I have a set.

You lefties need to read Stephen Hayes’ book The Connection. It demonstrates that their were links between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Moreover, the History Channel is showing a special about Saddam on Sunday nigh at 7 -- watch it and then tell me he never had WMD (or the desire for more).

Dain-

Never said he never had them. Never said he didn’t want them. But, after we had Hans Blix in there repeatedly, and when Powell was forced to present his flimsy evidence as though it was real,---at that point there were no WMD’s. When did we start invading countries because of what they desired?

All the reasons that Bush gave AT THAT TIME were false reasons. Colin Powell said that he never saw evidence of and Al Quaeda--Iraq association. We have never found WMDs in Iraq, Saddam was not on track to obtain long-range missiles. Those were lies.

Another (and the one that started this!)lie is that Iraq is some kind of picnic ground, where they love Americans. Bull. Might as well say," You’re doin’ a great job, Rummy!"

Fat Mike, I don’t even know where to begin with you. The link that you so triumphantly claim has "PROVED" your assertions basically has nothing to do with what you were talking about. (Although it’s a little difficult to tell exactly what you’re talking about). As for your nonsense about the war being fought in Iraq is better than it being fought in the U.S., I don’t think your "hypotheticals" are really too likely. Even among those who buy into the idea that terrorists are being kept busy in Iraq and therefore unable to do anything in America, I think you’d find few who actually imagine some crazy "Red Dawn" style war in which terrorists are "marawding" through our backyards. Given your brilliant debate-style, I’m guessing that you might be "...." under a different name.

Dain, your tenacity is amazing. You’ll just never give up on the whole "Saddam was behind 9/11" thing.

Here’s a link Fat Mike should have posted:

WMD evidence

Thanks, Luke. That was a needed corrective.

Phil...I’ve said that Saddam had dealings with Al Qaeda, and I’ve said that he had WMD just prior to our invasion. I’ve never said (nor has the administration) that he aided and abetted 9/11 ... stop with the sandbagging already!

Lt. Dan, could you please specifically tell us the lie and/or lies George Bush has told?

Hey, a Randian zombie! Whaddya know! Listen, I liked Rand’s stuff too, back in college when I was young and stupid. Like any radical ideology, Rand couldn’t see past her own nose...people asking for their fair share aren’t necessarily "looters," and the individual is not separable from society. Her ideas would work in the real world for about 5 minutes, and then someone would remind John Galt that, without other people, he’s just an insect.

I see Rand as the negative of radical collectivism...neither one of these polar opposites is worth two hoots in hell.

Andrew B. -- First, he told us not only that Saddam had WMD’s, but that we knew right where they were. Then, he told us that Iraq posed a real and imminent threat against the U.S.., then he told us that Saddam had been trafficking in Niger for "yellowcake," then he told us that the enemy that was responsible for 9/11 was in Iraq, then he told us that there was clear evidence of terrorist training facilities in Iraq, then he told us that the mission was accomplished, and then he told us that it wasn’t accomplished but that it was going well. He also told us that the person responsible for outing Valerie Plame would be fired. He also told us that Brown, the head of FEMA, was doing a good job. He also told us that his tax cuts for the wealthy would benefit all Americans, and he told us (a long time ago) that he would never send troops into another country without a clear exit plan. He’s a liar.

Lt. Dan..please provide a direct quotation from Bush or any of his people that Saddam helped plan and execute the 9/11 attacks (including the source, please).

As for terrorist training camps in Iraq, have you never heard of Salman Pak?

The rest of your post is drivel as well. You’re the liar.

That is right Dain, LT. Dan is the LIAR. He’s not even a leiutenent yet he uses that name and offends our brothers in harms way. ONce Iraq has been made into a peaceful Democracy nation and the terrorists have no place to hide you will see the benifits of President George Bushs actions- there is an exit strategy and its called VICTORY. And if we have to go kick Irans behind and Korea’s as well, then so be it. George Bush is the man for the job. I say roll back the stupid term limits rule right now because, whose going to be a better man for the job. Good day.

You two are a hoot! You ask me please to do your research for you, then call me a liar? Let me respectfully suggest you two find a hotel somewhere and get to know each other better.

I was asked for Bush’s lies, and I provided them. If they don’t sound familiar to you, then I suggest that you have been keeping your head somewhere where the reception isn’t too good

No, you’re right, Dain- Bush never publicly, explicity stated that Saddam was behind 9/11. But did he do much to refute that belief when 70% of Americans held it? And didn’t he and his stoolies strongly suggest that Saddam and Iraq WERE behind 9/11? If you say no, then read here

Nice try, bub...you don’t have any evidence, as I thought. Moreover, your ignorance about Iraq and its role in terrorism is appalling (try diversifying your news sources...moveon.org and michaelmoore.com are pretty narrow).

On the other hand, we’ve given you reputable news sources on 1) terrorist activities in Iraq prior to our invasion, and 2) the existence of WMD before the invasion. All the other stuff you said (Plame, FEMA) is just Leftist boilerplate. No one has been "indicted" in the Plame "case," and no one will be. FEMA’s response was actually faster than in other major hurricane disasters.

Oh please, Phil, is that the best you can do. Saddam did have ties with Al Qaeda, so deal with it, OK. He never, never, never said Saddam had a hand in 9/11...how many more times could he have said it?

And, despite what you think, we had every right to take the man down. Didn’t he try to assassinate a former American President in Kuwait in the 1990s? I’d call that terrorism. He had camps, he had ties, Abu Nidal was killed in Baghdad, he paid the families of Palestinian suicide bombers...he and his cronies cheered when the Twin Towers came down (that’s documented). But no, the existence of camps, of material ties to Al Qaeda and other groups, his past use of WMD, his mass murder...none of that counts with you folks on the Left. As Cindy Sheehan says, we need to get out of occupied Iraq...and New Orleans!!! Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Try this website on for size. Bub.

https://www.bushlies.net/pages/1/index.htm

And calling my points "Leftist boilerplate" doesn’t make it so. Your sources are no more reputable than mine.

And so far, no one HAS been indicted in the Plame case. That is precisely the point, Zippy! No one has caught bin Laden, either. That doesn’t make him innocent, does it? But, Bush said that he would fire the person responsible in the Plame case, and he hasn’t. He said that he would catch bin Laden, and he hasn’t. I hope he gets them both. Then, you can call me a liar. Until then, why don’t you give up?

Listen, pal, we provided legitimate news sources ... MSM, remember? All you’ve got is Leftist Liars Spewing Leftist Lies.

As for Plame...I thought we consider people innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. I think your totalitarianism is showing.

As for lying about catching bin Laden, last I looked he still has three years in office. You must have a funny definition of lying...which doesn’t surprise me...mack.

https://www.bushlies.net/pages/10/index.htm

Here’s some more, Zippy.

Here’s some MSM stuff on FEMA.

https://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/17/katrina.response/index.html

Your source is just more piling-on Brown, who is being scapegoated. The facts are, FEMA’s response to major hurricane-related disasters has never been all that fast -- Hugo 4 days, Andrew 9 days, Katrina 5 days. I think they did pretty good considering the state of the infrastructure and the cluelessness of the State and local governments they had to deal with.

Regardless, Bush’s comment about Brown was perfectly true at the time he made it, and his resignation reflects the lynching mentality more than the man’s abilities. No one here lied about anything...again, you’ve got a strange definition of lying.

The topic of this post was Iranians and their appreciation for America and what it stands for. Having lived under a real lying tyranny for a quarter-century now, ordinary Iranians place a high value on freedom and understand that the Land of the Free par excellence is the US of A. Many Iranians appreciate not only the US in general, but President Bush in particular for his statement of this past June 16 (news of which immediately spread all over Iran) that the election the mullahs were about to stage was bogus from the get-go, as numerous candidates had been summarily banned by the unelected "Guardian Council."

Perhaps you’d like to follow Luke’s link on #22 before you call people cretins. Although he got the link wrong, the fact is that Saddam did ship out tons of materials just before our invasion...I remember, I was paying attention (unlike you, apparently). There is something sombering when you see missle engines sitting in salvage yards all over Europe (and there were pictures of this, as I recall).

The reason we didn’t find WMD in Iraq is because of the delay tactics of your buddies in the UN and Europe (all of whom were on Saddam’s payroll, as it turns out). I’m forced to conclude, HDT, that you must want the Islamic Jihad to win this war...you’re doing absolutely NOTHING to help us win it, after all, and people like you are doing lots to reduce our resolve. But if you feel comfortable giving aid and comfort to murdering thugs and vicious dictators, well...not much I can say to that.

That’s right, HDT. In order to be a true patriot, you must learn to regard the main stream media as the vanguard of a left-wing conspiracy. You must learn to believe that EVIDENCE THAT SADDAM DID COMPLY with the UN sanctions is actually evidence that he did not comply. You must learn to label every Bush lie as a misunderstanding, a failure of the media, or as something that good manners should prevent you from discussing. Patriots must never question their leaders, even, or especially, when those leaders and their buddies profit from wars that are fought -- not by those leaders or their buddies -- but by soldiers who must choose between feeling abandoned and lied to and used, or that, despite the evidence, this invasion was begun for good reasons.

You must learn to disregard every bit of evidence that makes you uncomfortable as biased, leftist crap, and every word uttered in GWB’s support as gospel.

You must learn that words like "compassion" and patriotism" and "democracy" and "freedom" are more potent than reality, if you can only get people to think and act like Fat Mike and Dain. They eat this crap, and spread it around like pushers. They want others to eat it, and like it, too. And it’s so EASY to roll over and let the Bushies do it to you!

Come to Iran! We love America! Iraq, too! Pay no attention to the suicide bombers, and the endless stream of new "terrorists," born many times every day from hate and arrogance and death and invasion.

Pay no attention to the financial, human, and moral cost of this war. Pay no attention to the evidence that Bush is spreading us too thin -- so thin that we can’t help ourselves adequately after a hurricane.

Look at the words they use! Compassionate Conservativism. Where is the compassion? In Iraq? In the photo ops with GWB in Mississippi? In Bush’s mother, with her crack about how poor people should be thankful for a nice dome over their heads? In the growth of poverty? In the 1900 families who have lost their sons and daughters so that Halliburton and Bechtel can quadruple their profits?

How about the "coalition of the willing"? What is that? Great Britain, and who? How many?

How about the "Patriot Act"?

It is all words with no substance, just like this BS about how they love us over there. Meaningless words, like Leftist boilerplate.

Anyone can do that! "That’s just right-wing propaganda!" "Why don’t you bring me some REAL evidence?" "Is that all you’ve got?"

Stop thinking, HDT, and be a gump! Accept that persistence and repetition are the same as integrity. Accept that snottiness and belligerence are the same as strength. Believe that labels are more important than substance. That patriotism demands blind obedience, and that smart is stupid and stupid is smart.

Lt. Dan, you reveal yourself for what you are...just another MoveOn.Org hater. No thinking, no evidence...just angry (and illogical) accusations. You disgust me...I’m ashamed to share the same country with you.

And speaking of which, if you are so unhappy with the stupid masses of Amerika, why don’t you leave and go embrace the Euros! Or better yet, go live with your buddies in a cave in Pakistan! Now that WOULD help the war effort.

And no, Mooron, I’m not saying "America, love it or leave it." I’m saying why don’t seriously bitter people like yourself go to a place where everyone agrees with YOU? Since you obviously aren’t capable of either rational thought or compromise, I see this as your only alternative. Osama has a nice warm rock for you to sleep on, if you will only convert!

Dear Dain-

That is more than a little ironic coming from a believer of the "No Left Turns" ideology. A better idea is this-- why don’t you go fight in the war that you think is such a great cause? Go on over there and put your body where your mouth is.

I’m sure that the effort to bring Democracy to the USA fan club over there is just waiting for your fine-tuned brain to turn the tide.

If, as I suspect, you are too old to fight, I bet Halliburton has a place for you.

Much like your namesake’s family, my family has a long tradition of fighting in wars (direct ancestors in most of our major wars...my father fought in both WWII and Korea). As for me, you are correct, I’m old and broken-down. What of it? I am happy with America, whereas you are clearly not. One nice thing about Amerika (which is not true for the socialist hellholes you probably worship) is that you CAN LEAVE ANY TIME. So why don’t you...the benighted Amerikan masses won’t miss you, believe me!

I also note you don’t deny being a Mooron. ’Nuff said...I suggest you spend your time on Kos or the DU...NLT welcomes thoughtful liberals, but not zomboid ideologues.

Yes, Lt. Dan, Dain is VERY proud of his family’s fine fighting traditions, and he knows all about each and every ancestor. Why, on other threads on this very blog he has regaled us with tales of his brave forefathers who battled the KKK, and how he understands the pains of slavery, descending from Roman slaves himself! But don’t bother to ask how he could know this, let alone how it’s relevant- he’ll just ignore you or accuse you of sarcasm, two of his favorite tactics.

Dain, what your family did in the past doesn’t mean a thing for you. You’re such a fan of this war, yet you claim you can’t do anything to support our boys other than to spout your venom on NLT. Take Lt. Dan’s advice and sign on with Halliburton! And another thing: Why do you insist on calling the U.S. "Amerika?" I’m assuming it’s some hilarious joke about how liberals supposedly think the country is so racist or something, but it’s pretty strange that you ALWAYS spell it that way. It’s not really funny, so give it a rest. And why can’t we criticize what we consider to be problems with our country? It is possible to love your country without blindly accepting everything its government does without question, as you seem to be advocating. It is beyond insulting that you insist that all liberals are traitors, eager to join Al Qaeda if only we knew how, because we don’t think just like you do.

Mock me and my family, fine. Go right ahead.

As for "problems with our country," I’m not sure what would be required to get you behind "the program." 3,000 dead Americans, an attempt on a former President’s life, etc. etc...when you have some reasonable arguments to make then get back to me. Until then, goodbye.

First, what is a mooron? Is it anything like an idioot? Second, please don’t tell Cuba, or Vietnam, or Libya that attempting to assassinate the country’s leader is grounds for invasion. Becasue, if you do, despite all of your ancestors and their sacrifices, I won’t feel very safe at all.

Phil -- nice to hear from a reasonable person!

On the question of how Iraqis feel about Americans, I would urge all to read this briefing by Col. H.R. McMaster, CO of the US Army component in the recent joint operation that cleared Tal Afar of dug-in terrorists:

https://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050913-3901.html

It seems that a fair number of people in that Iraqi city grasp that the future which the Coalition and the elected Iraqi government are offering them is better than the nonfuture that the terrorists have been seeking to impose on Iraqis through fear and murder.

The whole briefing is well worth reading, but just to give a few representative quotes:

"COL. MCMASTER: . . . we were able to gain access to intelligence here by a very good relationship with the people, who recognized this enemy for who they are and were very forthcoming with human intelligence. In one raid in the beginning of June, for example, we were able to capture 26 targeted individuals, some of the worst people here in Tall Afar, within a 30-minute period. And the enemy began to realize this isn’t working either, they can’t hide in plain sight anymore. . . ."

"our forces aggressively pursued the enemy in these [heavily fortified] areas. They were able to defeat these IEDs based on the human intelligence we developed. . . ."

"We had some very heavy fighting on the 5th and 6th of September, during which we killed many of the enemy, who engaged us from their forward defensive positions. And it was at that point that the enemy shifted their approach again to essentially running away from the area. They gave the word to retreat. They did everything they could to blend in with the civilians who were evacuating from this dense urban area to protect them, and we caught them. We were integrated with the population. The people were pointing out who the enemy was. . . . ."

"we achieved, I think, an unprecedented level of cooperation between civil officials and our partnership units: the police, the mayor and the people. . . . I think the people are sick and tired of this violence, of this enemy, and they are very grateful for our efforts, and the Iraqi army’s efforts in particular, to rid them of this enemy. The cooperation with the people, again: another important element of our success here, the access to the intelligence that that relationship we’ve developed with the people has given us."

PJC- To coin a phrase: "is that all you’ve got? That’s just more militaristic right-wing propaganda! Who does he work for? How surprising to see people pointing at others when facing the wrong end of a rifle. Why, in the past, people would just give themselves up and confess. Now, they actually rat each other out! This is progress.

I think I hate Dain. Dain makes me hate the idea of the Republican party. Dain, rather people like Dain (on both sides) are the reason we have such polarity and division in our country. Dain, your personal attacks don’t prove any points, they just force people to your level and make others want to stop reading this blog. Do you feel better when you get in bed at night, knowing that you berated some college student who’s 10-20 years younger than you?

The people of Tal Afar (who are mostly Turkmen, BTW) could have simply kept their heads down, stayed behind clsoed doors, dummied up, done nothing, sat on their hands, and so on. That would have been inarguably the safest course. Instead, at least a fair number of them actively helped (no doubt as discreetly as they could, which is only prudent) to point out the terrorists in their midst and to pass on other valuable intelligence. Parts of Tal Afar were wired like Jenin (where the Palis killed 13 IDF soldiers with a single booby trap), but Coalition casualties were very light thanks to all the good intel from locals. These Iraqi civilians saved lives. Col. McMaster was there--do you have anything other than name-calling to put up against his testimony? If you read the whole briefing, you can see that he paints a still-sobering picture. But I posted his briefing because it does indeed speak to the fact that we are getting serious help from Iraqi civilians who are evidently taking serious risks to give us that help. I think they are doing so because they understand what the stakes are in this fight. I only wish everyone here in the USA understood them half so well.

Obviously, #50, you are someone else’s gay lover. Your comment is typical of the juvenile Left...logic and facts tend to get under your skin, and so you lash out. Grow up.

As for college students, this assumption that they are "just kids" is part of the problem. If they are old enough to post they are old enough to be held responsible for what they post. They too need to grow up and except responsibility for their actions and words. Indeed, much of our social structure is dedicated to protecting us from dumb, hormonal youth...they can be dangerous.

Meant to say "accept" in line 5 above.

Dain, is that all I am to you now? Just a number...? Joking aside, it worries me that you’re so quick to call me a lefty, when I haven’t said anything of the sort. Similarly, things you say about others who’ve posted, are based on your assumptions. Last I checked, assumptions are not synonymous with the "facts" that are supposedly getting under my skin.
Furthermore, who are you quoting with "just kids"? That was never stated in this dialogue. I’m certain that most of the young minds reading this are probably above and beyond yours, but would rather challenge themselves learning from new and old thinkers than watch Fox News all day and claim to be an expert. Hint: if you were really so wise and knowledgable, I’m sure you’d be invited to be a regular poster.
Finally, I’m glad you agree that your personal attacks accomplish nothing and just cause more meaningless drivel to pile up on an otherwise valuable source of information.
I’ll continue to post from the "juvenile left" and let the "mature left" deal with relevant issues that occur outside of NLT.
Keep it real, Dain, keep it real.

You’ve said nothing in this post...nothing at all. I do state opinions, but also I leave links that contain evidence. I also employ logic (a strange form of thought you wouldn’t know much about).

You are the one that mentioned "college students," and how I should feel guilty for criticizing them. In essence, you are saying their youth should grant them immunity from 1) thought and 2) decency. Sorry, bucko, no dice.

As far as being a regular poster (by which I guess you mean a thread-starter), maybe I already am, genius.

If by saying nothing, you mean I didn’t attempt to divert your attention to something else so that you would ignore what I was saying, you’re right. Some people like to address issues and get them sorted out before moving on to something else that doesn’t matter. I’m glad you find links to support your opinions, but I never said anything about your opinions. It was your assumptions that are your downfall, i.e. assuming you know anything about me because of these few posts; assuming I’m not a Republican who just doesn’t like you, assuming I’m unable to use logic, etc.

Yes, I did mention college students, but never under the pretense that they should have "immunity from thought and decency." Again, your assumptions get you into trouble...

If you already are a thread-starter, then why do you hide behind this pseudonym? Is it because you know that the stuff you’re saying would lessen your credibility? Or, is it for some other reason?

Do you feel better when you get in bed at night, knowing that you berated some college student who’s 10-20 years younger than you?

So, what DID you mean by the statement above? I don’t think it takes Sherlock Holmes to figure out you aren’t the brightest bulb in the pack...you don’t even remember what you write or why you write it from post to post.

As for pseudonyms, perhaps the way you identify yourself "Dain’s Gay Lover" (an insult itself) should tell you all you need to know. Expressing my true opinions under my real name (and address) would allow childish individuals like yourself to abuse me in places other than this venue. The logic seems simple enough...should I type slower for you?

I was merely stating that you ought to rethink the fact that you get into immature squabbles with people 10 years your minor. I don’t think you accomplish much with your personal jabs, and don’t think you would have to worry about being accosted in ’real life’. I’m sure people disagree with Knippenberg and Hayward, but I doubt they get jumped everyday because of it.
Otherwise, I agree, I’m not the brightest bulb in the box. "Ouch." Again, personal attacks are an awful way to try to get your point across. If you want to be taken seriously as an intellectual mind, then lighten up.
As for now, I have to go find personal information about people I discourse with online, so that I can go to their house and bother them.

No, don’t make this about me. I’ve seen other posters mocked as well. Perhaps I’m more of a lightening rod because I argue back (and generally effectively). And yes, when people use names like "Dain’s Gay Lover" I get confrontational. Seems pretty natural to me.

This thread is a prime example. My comments #7, 9, 19, and 23 where informative and relevant. I did get a bit testy in #26 with the Randian door-to-door salesman, primarily because his/her post showed disrespect for the dialogue (and he was wrong...it’s a atrocious philosophy). Thereafter, once Lt. Dan and Phil started using words like "liar," things heated up, sure. And then YOU showed up (and you haven’t contributed a damned thing but name-calling and accusations).

I love the way you people think...you should have the right to use harsh language and baseless accusations, but if someone repays you in the same coin then they "don’t accomplish much." Horse feathers! If you are going to preach, then practice some of it, hypocrite. Change your name for starters.

I called Bush a liar, Dain. Not you. You are a target because you call people names, and suggest that mere disagreement with you is the same as being stupid. Play chicken-and-egg all you want. You start this stuff, and you call for help (from John Moser, for instance, and the Deus Ex Machine) when the argument devolves predictably into juvenile stone-throwing. Many of us do it. You are the only one who cries about it, when the chickens come home to roost.

LD, I wasn’t asking for John’s help...he censored one of my posts and I wanted equal treatment (it kind of offends me that someone can decide what should and shouldn’t stay on the thread). Believe me, buddy, I really don’t need help holding my own (what a silly thought!).

As for starting "it," in my book if you slander a good man then be prepared for some "blowback." If you call a man a liar you’d better not be lying yourself. As I think we amply demonstrated, you don’t have anything to point to that suggests Bush is a liar. Perhaps he’s made some mistakes, perhaps he shouldn’t have believed his own intelligence community on Iraq...but he’s never been a liar. Never.

And as for who starts the ad homiinem, I’d say that was YOU and Fat Mike in this instance. You guys were already slinging it before words like "liar" dragged me into it.

Okay. For what it is worth, I will, and would, never knowingly slander a good person. I know in my heart that Bush is bad news, and I know in my heart that the evidence will demonstrate that. The media, despite the MSM name-calling, is frightened to death by this administration, and if and when it ever feels free, it will do a better job of exposing the Bush/Rove/Cheney machine.

I know you don’t agree with that, but just so you know, that is what I believe. You won’t recognize my evidence, ever. but, at least recognize that I see it as valid, and am not lying.

Too late, "Lt." Dan: You’ve already slandered Col. McMaster. Or is calling someone a purveyor of "rightwing militaristic propaganda" a compliment in your book? Somehow, I doubt it.

As for what people know in their hearts, I know in mine that the biggest weapon our enemies are counting on is the defeatists and copperheads in our own camp. The terrorists expect to outlast us and slash away at our will to win, and they know that the cutting edge of that effort is Westerners (mostly albeit not solely leftists) who have more animus in their hearts against Bush than they do against bin Laden.

Shortly after 9/11, Norman Podhoretz publicly warned that unity on our side would be fleeting, and that the Left would swiftly fall into its familiar tactic (developed during Vietnam and the later Cold War) of kneejerk "anti-anticommunism" (with Islamofascism now substituting for communism). Of course there would be the occasional halfhearted, pro-forma, purely rhetorical Leftist avowal of loyalty to America (usually mouthed as a set-up for vicious criticism of America) and opposition to our enemies (usually mouthed as a preface for implicit excuse-mongering on their behalf). But a global view of Leftist discourse would show vastly more time and energy spent on endlessly running down our side, damning its motives, savagely attacking its leaders, etc., than on any serious opposition to Islamofascists (for whom Leftists like to offer various apologias anyway, as they are mostly non-Westerners and therefore implicitly assumed to be virtuous people with legitimate grievances).

Sadly, Podhoretz was right. The silver lining is that just as in the Cold War, this attitudinal stew of essential negativism and defeatism (spiced with weakly diluted anti-Americanism) has made it hard for parties of the Left to win elections. Indeed, it seems to be precisely this record of political failure which is currently driving the Left farther and farther around the bend: Far from subsiding after the verdict of last November’s election, the Left is growing ever more spiteful, since the "wrong" side seems to have won, which suggests that history may not be on the Left’s side after all (for most Leftists, "history" as conceived by the Left is a half-acknowledged functional substitute for God--I speculate that much Islamofascist spite grows out of a similar unspoken fear that Transcendence is not really on their side, for otherwise how to explain the relative weakness of Islamic "civilization" given that Islam is a classic "winners’" religion whose adherents are supposed to be guaranteed this-worldly power and success?).

So I take some comfort from the Left’s political failures so far, but I worry that our enemies’ diabolical energy and persistence, combined with the Left’s continuing blind defeatism, reflexive anti-Americanism, and now almost complete domination of the national-level Democratic Party may allow circumstances to reverse the dynamic, in which case we will be in terrible trouble, and will probably have to wait for some terrible event (like another huge enemy attack on our homeland) to wake us up and convince us once again that shoving aside the party of surrender and carrying the fight to the Islamofascists is the only way to win a war that we can win or lose, but not opt out of.

Well said, PJC.

Dear PJC- If by "well said," Dain refers to quantity, then I agree. But, you are missing a couple of points:

first of all, the "slander" that you refer to was lifted verbatim from Dain’s remarks! I was making a point regarding Dain’s knee-jerk tendency to dismiss any bit of evidence brought to the table by Lefties as "leftist boilerplate, etc..." so, thank you for demonstrating once again the futility of this chicken-or-the-egg discussion of who started what!

Put another way, if my words were offensive, then blame Dain, because I was quoting him!

Second, and much more importantly, your argument would be valid IF and only if the war itself could ultimately be proven to be just and necessary. otherwise, it is nothing other than attitude-smithing.

Suppose, for a moment, that as your elected leader, I led us all down a series of rabbit-holes lined with rabbit traps, predicting all the while that the treasonous among you would complain and resist throughout the entire process. As soon as the predictable chorus of complaints began, i could point to people and say, "see? I predicted these anti-Americans would do just this!"

But, I don’t understand why you can’t see that it is NOT unAmerican to critique a decision, or a tendency to lead a country down the wrong path! Even if someone predicted it! Even if someone disagrees, and thinks that this is just the loveliest war we’ve evr had! Even if someone calls it unAmerican! That does not make it so.

And your tendency for hyperbole only deepens the animosity between the two "sides." Bin Laden vs Bush? Does that suggestion help the situation? Do you REALLY think that people who hate Bush must therefore like bin Laden, even a little bit? That is ridiculous!

How about this?? I hate bin Laden. If Bush hates bin Laden as much as he hates lefties, why doesn’t he take his army out of Iraq and use it to ---- oh, I don’t know --- get bin Laden? I think he hates Lefties more than he hates bin Laden! He holds hands with Saudis and he hasn’t held hands with me!

You and Dain both seem to think that criticizing Bush means we hate America. Dain has even suggested that we leave. It is you, then, who do not understand the true spirit of this country, which was founded on freedom and revolution. if you are so fond of totalitarianism that you must equate freedom of speech with treason, then it is you who are in the wrong place.

PJC, I don’t understand Lt. Dan’s last post...when did he quote me? I don’t see it.

The guy lives in never-never land, apparently. When last I looked, Bush was simply following American policy that went back to the first Bush administration (Clinton actually called for regime change). The only difference is, Bush has the guts to actually do it, despite Leftist backbiting.

You know, I bet this guy questions the legitimacy of WWII...those Nazis never did a thing to us!

And if you had had the luck to be born a German, we know who you would support, too! What guts Hitler demonstrated! What terrible anti-Germans those Jews are! What weak-kneed traitors, anyone who would question their leader, and his courage in committing Germany’s sons to war!!

I can just see you, Dain, slobbering all over the chance to be the first Hitler Youth on your block to get your brown shirt, and show your blind obedience to your buddy, Adolph.

Then, you could put into practice your invitation to leave the country -- via railroad car.

Go to hell, dude. We were attacked...and yes, Saddam had attacked us before as well. You’re a traitor, pure and simple...probably a coward as well.

We are done here.

Struck a nerve, there, Kristallnacht-boy?

You may be done, and good riddance, but I am not.

Thanks for the entertainment! I’m not swayed in my opinions/beliefs...but it was entertaining!!

Thanks again!

Dain:

I can’t see where "Lt." Dan has quoted you, either. I think he meant to say that he was trying sarcastically to parody you or something to that effect. I infer from this that he wasn’t seriously attempting to impeach Col. McMaster’s credibility: In other words, "Lt." [sic] Dan had nothing of significance to say about the McMaster briefing one way or the other, so he seized on it as an occasion to take a cheap shot at you while appearing casually to insult Col. McMaster’s good name in the process. What a class move.

FTR, I of course never said that leftists "like" bin Laden, nor have I told anyone that they have to leave anyplace, though at times I do feel it’s a shame that people can gain access to the Internet without having to pass a basic reading-comprehension test first.

So, PJC. Instead of picking on the small stuff, do you agree with Dain that it is treason to question the leader? Is it un-American to suggest (rightly or wrongly) that the leader is lying? For instance, when people on the right suggested that Clinton lied, was that un-American? When we suggested (before it was proven) that Nixon was a liar, was that treason? Do you agree with Dain?

"Lt." [sic] Dan: Your queries depend on a false premise, for since when are hysterical slanders and wild accusations the same thing as genuine questions? I have questions about Bush and his policies myself, but they are just that--questions--and not barely veiled explosions of hatred. You already think you know everything you need to know about Bush. You don’t have any real questions, just a lot of (fortunately so far) frustrated rage.

Again, FTR, I don’t think it’s "small stuff" that you indulge in pointless insults when you have absolutely nothing of substance to say. On the contrary, I find it rather revealing.

Nothing of substance. I am suggesting that the leader of our country is a liar, and that we have entered into a neeldess and destructive war. That there is no evidence that WMD’s were justification for a preemptive strike, that the press has been successfully bullied by the government, and that blind obedience is different from patriotism.

That is not a lack of substance. It may be aversive to you, but there is plenty of substance there.

Plus, lyou really did not address my question. Do you agree with Dain that my behavior is treasonous?

Dain, your response to Phil Thomspon’s comment (comment 32 responding to 31) was pretty weak. He had provided a Cox News Service piece as printed in the Seattle paper. It wasn’t, as you seemed to suggest, from MoveOn.org or Michael Moore. It was actually pretty informative, and punched some sizeable holes in your already paper-thin assertions.

Ron, that article doesn’t prove that Bush asserted that Saddam was behind the 9/11 attack. Try to follow the argument, will you?